Graded Stakes Contest - Feedback Please

[RichieP]

Thinking out loud here and need some feedback please.

How bout a Graded Stakes (Grade 1 and 2 ONLY) to kickoff with the Kentucky Derby?

Contest would run weekly and take us through the summer and end on Labor Day.

Different tracks - different surfaces - different distances

I have a list of stakes I compiled and will post here for you to see. I will add some from Delmar if this goes.As of right now they have NO stakes schedule up

Now some feedback/suggestions please:

1) what kind of wager format? IF we are gonna do something that needs totaling on a weekly basis that gets carried over to an overall total (like the FG contest)I need help. I can handle the totalling of that days scores but would need someone to transfer them and update the Overall totals.

a) simple win betting?
b) include exotics?
c) amount available per race to bet?

2) Wagering rules? do we do an advance betting type thing or "live" where folks can wager right up to post time?

3) contest format?
a) simple week to week winners ( like last years Friday race of the week format)
b) carryover totals for one ultimate winner ( Like Fg contest)
c) Something else?

Here is the list of races/ dates that I have drawn up consisting of ONLY grade 1 and grade 2 races run almost exclusively on the weekends.

On Belmont stakes day ONLY there will be TWO races for us. Any stakes that has Woody Stephens name on it HAS to be included man. He was the best and a total class act. So we do the Belmont stakes PLUS the Woody Stephens that day.:)

I welcome all feedback/suggestions. Derby less than a month away so we need to see if there is enough interest to have it ok?

thanx and here is the list I have compiled:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Kentucky Derby - Saturday May 5th - Churchill- 10f Dirt- Grade 1

2) Jim Murray Memorial - Saturday May 12th - Hollywood- 12f Turf- Grade 2

3) Preakness Stakes - Saturday May 19th - Pimlico - 9.5f Dirt - Grade 1

4) Gamely Stakes - Monday - May 28th - Hollywood - 9f Turf - Grade 1

5) Ohio Derby - Saturday - June 2nd - Thistledown -9f Dirt - Grade 2

6) Belmont Stakes - Saturday June 9th - Belmont - 12f Dirt - Grade 1

7) Woody Stephens - Saturday - June 9th - Belmont - 7f Dirt - Grade 2

8) Stephen Foster - Saturday - June 16th - Churchill - 9f Dirt - Grade 1

9) NY Breeders - Saturday - June 23rd - Belmont - 10f Turf - Grade 2

10) Hollywood Gold Cup -Saturday June 30th- Hollywood- 10f Dirt - Grade 1

11) Princess Rooney - Saturday July 7th - Calder - 6f Dirt -Grade 1

12) Bowling Green - Saturday July 14th - Belmont- 11f Turf- Grade 2

13) Virginia Derby - Saturday July 21st- Colonial - 10f Turf - Grade 2

14) Whitney - Saturday July 28th - Saratoga - 9f Dirt - Grade 1

15) Haskell - Sunday August 5th - Monmouth - 9f Dirt - Grade 1

16) Arlington Million - Saturday August 11th- Arlington - 10f Turf- Grade 1

17) Alabama - Saturday August 18th - Saratoga - 10f Dirt - Grade 1

18) King Bishop - Saturday August 25th - Saratoga - 7f Dirt - Grade 1

19) Penn Derby - Monday September 3rd - Philly - 9f Dirt - Grade 2

[Houndog]

Richie, I am all for it. As far as the format is concerned I would want to make it as easy as possible for you as alot of work is involved especially when you are talking about exotic bets with part-wheels; boxes; etc.

So any betting format you think would be best is fine with me.

[RAMON201]

I like the way the Fair Grounds Contest was set up but if I had one thing to change it would be that the amount bet would be deducted from the winnings. If you don't hit the amount bet would be deducted from your total.Other than that I like the stakes race idea.At least the races will feature quality horses.Count me in !

[noddub62]

Good idea.

How about a one horse per race win bet and let's see how we all do.
Bud.

** Bud**
I edited your post for legal reasons since you will be participating in the contest as well ok? Just double checked with Bill on this amigo. see next post.
Richie

[RichieP]

Just a quick note please:

A good friend of Pace and Cap has generously donated $200.00 and this has been matched by another very good friend of Pace and Cap.

We now have $400.00 in CASH early on as a prize fund donated generously by Friends of Pace and Cap!

Amazing.

Hoping for a lot of feedback and participation on this in the next few days. YOU help form the contest structure and rules. This is OUR site and ALL are welcome to submit feedback,donations ;) , ideas!

thanx
Richie

[finishline1]

excellent idea. i liked the f/g contest as it was. win and place and exacta betting. betting up to 5 min. before post time. week to week like the f/g contest.the race dates listed are o.k. with me. i hope it happens.


*** Finish***
Gonna edit your post to "Friends of Pace &Cap". Thanx man!
Richie

[JimG]

Since it is looking to be some cash, I suggest only people that had accounts here with at least one post as of yesterday should be eligible.

Jim

PS...A scoring suggestion, make it $2 win bet only with the total amount collected multiplied by the number of winners overall selected. This gives all people a fair shake, those that pick longshots and those that pick winners.

For example, after 5 weeks player A has $40 in winners and had 2 winners. Player B has $30 in winners comprising 3 wins. Player B would have 90 pts and player A would have 80 pts after 5 weeks.

[emilio840]

I suggest that we have only win bets. The reason for this is that we must learn to pick winners first. You can not win any type of race unless you pick a winner. And we should only be allowed to pick 1 horse to win.

I am trying to learn to bet like Jim or You. And I am sure that Jim only bets 1 horse in a race and you only bet 1 horse in a race. This will make us focus on winners. And this exercise would really help us.

AND IT WILL also MAKE IT EASIER ON THE PERSON THAT KEEPS THE SCORE.

emilio

[Turbulator]

I don't know if I'll be able to participate, but here are my thoughts.

Win Betting Only. If someone hits a big super or try, it's game over. In my opinion win betting has more skill as witnessed by the results of the win betting only contest just finished. Only 7 or 8 out of 30 were profitable win betting after 17 weeks. Granted not everyone participated, nor did they take the win betting aspect all that seriously, but it shows an interesting trend. Besides, like someone above pointed out--if you can't pick winners, how you gonna pick an exacta or a tri? (I also think an exacta betting only contest down the road might be interesting.)

I just happen to believe that a win betting only contest would be more beneficial--not only for developing your skills, but to see the different insights in the way everyone else plays the races.

There are several interesting formats you could use. Here are a couple of suggestions.

1. Bet as many horses to win as you like.

1a. Bet only one horse per race to win.

A contest such as this could be structured similar to a Las Vegas handicapping contest. I've only played in one, but it was years ago, so I don't know the exact rules for these kinds of things. But I did glance at the rules in the link below and they seemed pretty straight forward. They could easily be copied for this contest. I think this would be great practice for everybody.

That being said, any contest is a good contest. But any contest that includes supers and tris requires too much thinking on my part. :D I tend to handicap these things very quickly. (Look at the results of the win betting contest and you'll see how that worked our for me. :mad:

Here is a link to some rules for a recent contest.

http://tinyurl.com/3ydxzh

[jms62]

Richie,

Can I recommend the same format that the National Handicapping Contest uses in Vegas. A 2.00 WP on 1 horse.. I would like to donate 2 clubhouse passes(each day) to Saratoga for Wed. 8-22-2007 and Mon 8-27-2007. Since the contest extends past these 2 dates, you need to think about how to work them in. Maybe for the Triple Crown Races ? Your call.

[RichieP]

Richie,

Can I recommend the same format that the National Handicapping Contest uses in Vegas. A 2.00 WP on 1 horse.. I would like to donate 2 clubhouse passes(each day) to Saratoga for Wed. 8-22-2007 and Mon 8-27-2007. Since the contest extends past these 2 dates, you need to think about how to work them in. Maybe for the Triple Crown Races ? Your call.

Jim,
THANK YOU for the generous gift of those Spa tickets. I think your idea of focusing THAT prize on the triple crown races is a winner. Maybe the highest total of those races gets 1st crack at the date of choice and th enext highest picks next? Or the winner gets them both? YOU let me know what sounds good man. This is very generous and your input is needed!

I also like your wager suggestion along with some others.

Richie:)

[RichieP]

As of now we have

1) $450.00 cash Donated by Friends of Pace & Cap
2) 2 day passes for the Spa in late August donated by Jms

plus some very strong ideas about wager/scoring.

Keeep em coming please!
Richie

[Rverge]

hi richiep
great idea. what ever is easy for you sir
rverge

[gl45]

I second Jim62 idea 2.00 WP on one horse.
lbj

[Forego]

i think if we have a contest we need to include or provide for the 2 horse win wagerer. maybe a 4.00 per race wager allotment for win betting only. one horse wagerer places the 4 dollars on his horse.the two horse wagerer splits his bet having 2 dollars on each of his 2 choices.

F.B.

[chris]

Interesting concept. Would echo jms62 suggestion that we follow a recognized format; win & place, one horse only. Believe this would call on a different set of skills, and a change in emphasis from the the just concluded Fairgrounds contest.

The only caveat I would suggest is that it mirror the real world; no cap on odds. I've never been asked to return a portion of a winning ticket because it exceeded 30-1, except in contests.

Whether loses are deducted from winnings is your call, we'll live with what you decide.

Thanks for your efforts,
Chris

[admin]

Hey i just walked in
Great work Rich and thank you to the friends of Pace and Cap
for the early prizes !!!

I'm a bit worried It looks like us 2 horse win bet guys are in trouble
I don't think I can bet one horse

another thing I feel that if you have enough races in the contest
that the prices should stand on there own
I might see maybe a 20/1 Maxium payout but I feel a 1 time winnner
of a 11/1 horse can be caught over a decent number of races

I'm sure we will come up with a fair contest I am very happy
the Fairgrounds contest was a great learning tool for me

Bill

[shoeless]

You should have it open to people that have only posted within the last 30 days and have at least posted a total of 10 times.Jeff

[racetrackjohnny]

Hi everyone!
Sounds like fun!
I like the idea of one horse win place,
or two horse win bet.

I would like to see the bet size be $10,
so the 60-40, 70-30 2 horse win bettors can play their game!

[Bill Lyster]

Richie:

Maybe I can work up to a one horse bet in the future. Still more comfortable with betting two to win in most circumstances. However, I do support a limited exacta betting format (which could be controlled by the total amount of the total bet) and agree that tri's and super's are a bit much.

How about a $10 (total) win/place limit spread over up to two horses and exactas (say $12-$15 total) that must have one or both of the win bet horses on the top of the exacta combo.

Too many times I've turned an odds-on winner into a decent payoff with an overlooked place type.

Bill

[Ted Craven]

I like the idea of a $10 unit, covering 1 or more win bets or win/place bets only ($2.00 minimum bet). That does leave out exactas, but the simplicity could tend to focus the mind and make it more in parallel with common tournament practise (while retaining a nod to the Sartinesque multi-horse approach).

Ted

[Turbulator]

I like the idea of a $10 unit, covering 1 or more win bets or win/place bets only ($2.00 minimum bet). That does leave out exactas, but the simplicity could tend to focus the mind and make it more in parallel with common tournament practise (while retaining a nod to the Sartinesque multi-horse approach).

Ted

I don't have a problem with a multi-horse win-bet format or a single horse win-bet format or even a single horse WP format. They all work for me. The only thing I would add is that if you allow multi-horse win betting why restrict it to just two horses? Allow as many as your heart desires.

But if you do allow for more than two horses more money would have to be allocated in order to properly dutch say, three, four or five horses.

Some other ideas suggested that I like are subtracting losses. I'm neutral on capping the odds. I like the idea of mimicking an existing national contest. I'm against including exactas, but I'm all for a separate exacta only contest down the road.

That's all I have to say. I'm sure whatever y'all decide on will be OK.

[Ted Craven]

Right: 1 or more, as in 1,2,3... And it occurred to me that the tabulator(s) don't have a math problem with figuring out the payoff on a $3.00 bet (1.5 x mutuel) so there should be no problem with $1.00 minimum bets (.5 x mutuel).

So, I suggest $1.00 minimum win or place bets - $10 total unit per race. You could go lower than $1.00 but you have to stop somewhere!

Ted

[dogkatcher]

I like the idea of $10 unit for the race, and play it any way you can concieve of. No exotics. Also favor a cap, as if Giacomos half brother Tiago wins the Derby we'll have another $100 payout and many will lose interest in continuing due to being so far behind (not me, as am used to that position)!

Coming from the retired community, love the Free part, and whatever is decided upon will be graciously accepted. Good Luck and Good Health to ALL.

[Bob Cochran]

Hi Rich. I think another contest would be great. I don't know if it would be fair
to limit the type wagers, the amount per race you could set up.

I had no problem the way the FGX contest was set up. Everyone seemed
satisfied and had fun.
Since all of the pace and cap group have different wagering styles, it seems
rather restrictive to allow win and place betting only. IMHO

[partsnut]

Ritchie,

I have to hand it to you. Once again you've created lots of interest.
When it comes to contests, I'm there.
Thanks to you, I entered the Keenland contest and caught it just in time.
It's a win bet format and if your entry scratches you get the favorite in the race. Ater the first 2 days I'm at 208th with a lot of races to go.
Foregos posts have rejuvenated my thinking and methods and once again I'm back to the methodology. He's a major contributor to the board and I truly appreciate his work and Input. thanks Forego.

You might want to consider The BRIS rules where you pick a primary and secondary choice. If your primary choice scratches, you get your secondary choice.
You are credited with the win and the place Mutual and the win and place bets are capped at 20-1 to win and I think the place bets are capped at 15 or 16-1. Ask Gary or Bob Cochran, they could verify this.

Ritchie, Thanks for your good works.

[JimG]

Ritchie,

I think the place bets are capped at 15 or 16-1. Ask Gary or Bob Cochran, they could verify this.



10-1

[howlinwolf]

i also like the one horse win bet per race. should help to focus our winner picking ability.

[RichieP]

Great feedback and it's still early. Here is where my head's at after reading your input.

1) I like Jim G's idea of NOT opening a cash contest to new posters. If you don't have FIVE (5) posts before 4/09/7 you are NOT eligible to participate.

2) $10.00 per race to bet win or win/place in ANY way you want. NO exotics.

3) Cap on win payoffs of 20/1 ($42.00) and place payoffs at 10/1($22.00).

4) We allow betting up until ONE (1) mtp. We will use the "off" time of the race according to Equibase result chart as "post". Please note that if the off time says 5:00 and your posting of bet says 4:58 the bet is NOT allowed.

5) The 2 passes for Saratoga will go to the highest total in the 3Triple crown races.If the prize is turned down because he can not attend the next in line gets the shot and so on down the line til the prize is claimed.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
So that's where I'm at early on ok? PLEASE continue to give feedback and ideas.

We have 3 friends of P&C who have generously donated $450.00 in cash for a prize fund.

If you like what is going on with the site and stuff we do here and can contribute something toward the prize fund it would be greatly appreciated. Please contact either Bill V or myself PRIVATELY through PM and we will forward the amount to the board. Any and all donations to the prize fund are returned 100% to the contestants.

Again it's early on but it appears there is enough interest to have a contest.

I NEED HELP with the Overall scoring please. I will tally the days totals. I need someone to update the Overall standings weekly.


Keep posting up your interest in playing plus and feedback ok? It is most welcome and appreciated

thanx
Richie

[RichieP]

i also like the one horse win bet per race. should help to focus our winner picking ability.


Hi Howlin,
You are NOT eligible to participate in THIS contest as this is your initial post ok?

Contest is open to established POSTING members as of 4/09/07. With this being a cash contest I hope you can understand my reasoning here. Nothing personal.

Having gotten that out of the way welcome to Pace and Cap. We are a close community of dedicated horseplayers. You are more than welcome to post up in the future on things that interest you.

Richie Pizzicara:)

[jms62]

2) $10.00 per race to bet win or win/place in ANY way you want. NO exotics.



Although I would prefer a single Forced WP bet to be consistent with the National contestst (Isn't that a goal for a lot of us) I'm good with 2 horse wager. To make us somewhat consistent with the national format and make it easier on the scorekeeper how about if we use forced WP wagering even with 2 horse betting. This means if you split your bet over 2 horses your bet would be 5-WP on each horse.

[lschofiel]

A $10 wager split anyway you want should be the way to go.

I do not like the idea of a FORCED WP wager.

My 2 cents.

[RichieP]

Good idea.

How about a one horse per race win bet and let's see how we all do.
Bud.

** Bud**
I edited your post for legal reasons since you will be participating in the contest as well ok? Just double checked with Bill on this amigo. see next post.
Richie


Bud,
check your PM box :)
Richie

[froggy]

I have never entered a contest and Grade 1,s are the hardest for me to solve.

Having said that I think it is a good idea.

Froggy

[froggy]

What would happen if maybe seven people qualified for the passes to Saratoga. Personaly I would love to have them, but I would have to pass them off to someone else.

Froggy

[RichieP]

Some more thinking aloud.

1) Losses will NOT be deducted. This encourages folks to play EACH week and if things go bad at the start nobody sees negative numbers.The people who wind up top are gonna be there regardless in my opinion.

2) Thinking of paying the first THREE (3) spots with the cash we accumulate. Then any non cash prizes follow. This sound ok?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jim "The Hat" is donating a copy of Exdc/Kgen with Thoromation he has to the prize fund.

The C.E.O. of P&C ;) is working on a special additional cash prize.

ok
Richie

[Nets]

Great feedback and it's still early. Here is where my head's at after reading your input.

1) I like Jim G's idea of NOT opening a cash contest to new posters. If you don't have FIVE (5) posts before 4/09/7 you are NOT eligible to participate.

2) $10.00 per race to bet win or win/place in ANY way you want. NO exotics.

3) Cap on win payoffs of 20/1 ($42.00) and place payoffs at 10/1($22.00).

4) We allow betting up until ONE (1) mtp. We will use the "off" time of the race according to Equibase result chart as "post". Please note that if the off time says 5:00 and your posting of bet says 4:58 the bet is NOT allowed.

5) The 2 passes for Saratoga will go to the highest total in the 3Triple crown races.If the prize is turned down because he can not attend the next in line gets the shot and so on down the line til the prize is claimed.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
So that's where I'm at early on ok? PLEASE continue to give feedback and ideas.

We have 3 friends of P&C who have generously donated $450.00 in cash for a prize fund.

If you like what is going on with the site and stuff we do here and can contribute something toward the prize fund it would be greatly appreciated. Please contact either Bill V or myself PRIVATELY through PM and we will forward the amount to the board. Any and all donations to the prize fund are returned 100% to the contestants.

Again it's early on but it appears there is enough interest to have a contest.

I NEED HELP with the Overall scoring please. I will tally the days totals. I need someone to update the Overall standings weekly.


Keep posting up your interest in playing plus and feedback ok? It is most welcome and appreciated

thanx
Richie

Wonderful idea for a contest.

Sadly I have been a daily viewer of almost all the areas of this site for several months now, but I only posted one time.

Need to be less shy in the future I guess.:o

I will be following this with interest. Good luck to all!

Gary

[RichieP]

Wonderful idea for a contest.

Sadly I have been a daily viewer of almost all the areas of this site for several months now, but I only posted one time.

Need to be less shy in the future I guess.:o

I will be following this with interest. Good luck to all!

Gary

Hi Gary
Listen man nothing is set in stone yet.

To be HONEST I have seen you MANY times signed on the board and reading stuff over the past few months ok?

I was very wary of NEW folks coming onboard just to enter the contest. That does NOT seem to be you.

Working on some details with Bill. We will post up what is gonna go down in a week or so Gary. Final rules,prize fund etc etc.

So in the meantime GLAD to see you like the format!

Richie

[Nets]

Hi Gary
Listen man nothing is set in stone yet.

To be HONEST I have seen you MANY times signed on the board and reading stuff over the past few months ok?

I was very wary of NEW folks coming onboard just to enter the contest. That does NOT seem to be you.

Working on some details with Bill. We will post up what is gonna go down in a week or so Gary. Final rules,prize fund etc etc.

So in the meantime GLAD to see you like the format!

Richie


Thanks Richie

Regardless of the final rules I will continue to visit this site daily as I always
seem to find something of value.

And the number of obviously very intelligent people so willing to share their thoughts on handicapping is remarkable.

You and Bill and Ted, as well as many others are to be congratulated and thanked for all the hard work you put in. This is a really nice site!

Gary

[admin]

Ah come on, Adrian, it's true. I was nobody. But that don't matter either, you know? 'Cause I was thinkin', it really don't matter if I lose this fight. It really don't matter if this guy opens my head, either. 'Cause all I wanna do is go the distance. Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood

Rocky 1976

Since we are ending up in Philly for the Penn derby
I am inspired by Phillys own Rocky Balboa




I am offering an extra $50 prize
I will award two $25 cash prizes to the top two fighters

Here is what I have planned

Everybosy gets 1 point for each week they post picks for the contest

Everybody who picks a winner will get another point
The highest win total you pick will be recorded
at the end of the contest I will award two prizes
total points and highest win

If you miss a week you will lose a point
You will not lose points for lost picks

However this is the catch
You will lose a point for every horse you pick
over the maximum of 2 horses per race
If you pick more then two horses in a race you will
lose points for each OVER pick


so $25 goes to the highest point total
$25 goes to the highest posted picks winner

Any ideas or suggestions are very welcome!!

[RichieP]

Ah come on, Adrian, it's true. I was nobody. But that don't matter either, you know? 'Cause I was thinkin', it really don't matter if I lose this fight. It really don't matter if this guy opens my head, either. 'Cause all I wanna do is go the distance. Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood

Rocky 1976

Since we are ending up in Philly for the Penn derby
I am inspired by Phillys own Rocky Balboa




I am offering an extra $50 prize
I will award two $25 cash prizes to the top two fighters

Here is what I have planned

Everybosy gets 1 point for each week they post picks for the contest

Everybody who picks a winner will get another point
The highest win total you pick will be recorded
at the end of the contest I will award two prizes
total points and highest win

If you miss a week you will lose a point
You will not lose points for lost picks

However this is the catch
You will lose a point for every horse you pick
over the maximum of 2 horses per race
If you pick more then two horses in a race you will
lose points for each OVER pick


so $25 goes to the highest point total
$25 goes to the highest posted picks winner

Any ideas or suggestions are very welcome!!

This gotta be one of the most unique ideas for a couple of prizes I have seen Bill! go head :)

Richie