what you should read

[Bill V.]

You will do well with the Sartin Methodology If you visit the
Pace and Cap library and read the yellow manual, the Dynamics
of Energy and the POW I know there are lots of other manuals
and audio files in there but I feel its bets to start with the basics
first Audio files and videos are for a little later.

You will need to use a Sartin Methodology program
I suggest you start out with either Spec 160 or RDSS
but that is up to you I teach best with RDSS

Reading these manuals will get you a good base
After that. Then you should read follow ups 70 -88
You will now be learning what Howard Sartin considered vital
for todays racing

Bill V.

[bigjohna]

how to get access to library bigjohna

[Ted Craven]

John,

Please check your Private Messages!

Ted

[mikesal57]

Hi Bill...

You just reminded me a question that I was gonna ask , but forgot

Now it hit me :)

In the early issues of The Follow-Up, I believe the average win percentage of most members was between 40-50 %...With the finding of calculating the APV horse rating and a newly developed software program..most members jumped into the 60-70% range...
I'm going off the top of my head hear , I might be wrong , but with this new technical software age where in now...How come this 70% is not happening ?

thxs Mike

[Bill V.]

Great question Mike

I would say that in the early days of the methodology they were expected to and were getting
60-70% winners Reasons ? Well first off the methodology in the beginning was all about
helping non winners "The cure for losing is winning " The methodology main purpose was to
teach how to pick the two horses that gave you the best chance to win the race. Win percentage was everything Early Follow Ups were published so that the methodology teachings could reach more clients
It was a time when programs were constantly being developed and tweaked to maximize win betting
Pirco was very much a place to learn Manuals, seminars, workshops teaching members made it different than what we have today The Methodology was very different than what the mainstream had been learning with for years. The programs were not very expensive and all hand entry My opinion is that actually buying a program and having to learn the art of paceline selection, then hand typing lines into "YOUR"
own program, that not too many other people had access to was a major psychological tool
that got early Sartin methodologists the ability to win 6 or 7 out of every 10 races
What the main stream were using was teaching who should win, The early Sartins had tools
that showed them they had that edge they were getting the best horses
Again my opinion but the early methodologist needed to win and they had Howard Sartin
to help them learn the psychology of winning,
Why not today? well there is so much Internet communication, Programing and date files make it
easier to "play" the races Its been 35 plus years many people have taken this and that from
The early Methodology and its become part of racing that the mainstream now uses
I also feel that exotic betting that is available today takes some of the WIN betting skill
out of many players The early years It was much easier to stay focused
Today the big payouts of trifectas and serial bets These bets to me have a way to play with the mind
"I want to make big money too" is what many people say when those big pay outs are flashed.
I think that maybe deep down, many people don't give the work
and focus they need when they think "ah big deal" I can win a $8.00 horse even with out
a computer, But back then $8.00 and $9.00 horses was what the average win mutual was for
those who were winning 60 - 70 % betting the programs top two choices
About 1991 was when the shift started and The methodology became more geared toward
making people make money at the races not just how to win .

Bill

[mikesal57]

As always Bill, great explanation!!

So it was 2 horse betting that did that..

Hey...I think a lot of players wont mind (including me) getting a 6o-70 % winning bets at a $8-9 range...maybe this is the approach that the new members should take , after years of frustration (including me again..lol)

Anyone else?

thxs Bill

mike

[mikesal57]

Hmmm...

let do a little math here...

say..bet 10 races...

say..bet 2 horse @$10 each per race= $200

say ...get 7 winners @ $8.40 avg

say..collect $42.00 x 7= $294

ROI = 294/200= 1.47

47% return...

I'll take that

How can we get back to these results?

mike

[Zaf]

I would like to take a look at the Yellow Manual myself. Can I request directions to the library. Thanks in advance :)

[Ted Craven]

Check your Private Messages :)

Ted

[Zaf]

Thanks Ted,

Much appreciated !

Darrell

[Houndog]

Hmmm...

let do a little math here...

say..bet 10 races...

say..bet 2 horse @$10 each per race= $200

say ...get 7 winners @ $8.40 avg

say..collect $42.00 x 7= $294

ROI = 294/200= 1.47

47% return...

I'll take that

How can we get back to these results?

mike

Mike I would take that also. The one problem that I see is that in the earlier days of the Sartin Methodology horses that were paying $8.00 to $10.00 are now paying $6.00 to $8.00 or perhaps less.

I think one of the reasons that Bill alluded to is the internet and all the information that is available to the handicapper. When Pirco was perhaps the only game in town we had distinct advantages over the "Speed Guys".

With simulcasting we are no longer competing with just the local handicappers; but people from all over the country who many times are working with similiar numbers. I think many of the more casual players have moved to the gambling boats and other areas.

[RichieP]

Mike I would take that also. The one problem that I see is that in the earlier days of the Sartin Methodology horses that were paying $8.00 to $10.00 are now paying $6.00 to $8.00 or perhaps less.


Yup and horses that were paying 6-7 dollars are now paying non-bettable 4-5 bucks.

[mikesal57]

:eek: not good Richie at 5 bucks..gives a loss of 12.5%

but has anyone here done a work-up on this ,say like 50-100 races

Rich I believe you and Barb was doing 2 horse betting and hiding the favorite
How is/was that doing? and the reason you were hiding the favorite would be interesting to know

thxs Mike

[RichieP]

Rich I believe you and Barb was doing 2 horse betting and hiding the favorite
How is/was that doing? and the reason you were hiding the favorite would be interesting to know

thxs Mike

Hi Mike
Barb just finished her 2nd 20 race cycle and she has made real good profits on both.

Mike let me make Barb aware of this thread so she can give you some feedback on what she is doing and "looking at" regarding chalks ok?

I would bet off her reads any day of the week. She is VERY strong in handicapping phase of working a race. Very strong

[Donnie]

Would like to request permission to your library as well, if possible. Thank you!
Currently re-reading Talbout and dusting off the Brohammer and Hambleton books.
-Donnie

[Ted Craven]

Hi Donnie,

Check your Private Messages.

Cheers,

Ted

[Tim Y]

The MAJOR problem I find when people start out in the methodology is the UN-LEARNING.

Total rookies without the infused background of all of the ridiculous "horsey" rules do far better than those who buck the ideas from day one.

[DrewClear]

May I get access to yellow manual please?
Drew

[RichieP]

May I get access to yellow manual please?
Drew

Morning Drew
If you still need help accessing the yellow manual PM me here and you will be hooked up :)

[CC Brown]

Hmmm...

let do a little math here...

say..bet 10 races...

say..bet 2 horse @$10 each per race= $200

say ...get 7 winners @ $8.40 avg

say..collect $42.00 x 7= $294

ROI = 294/200= 1.47

47% return...

I'll take that

How can we get back to these results?

mike

They did not win at 70% when I came along in 1990. I never talked to one guy I knew or at a Sarton seminar they really claimed %70 win rate on 2 horses. I talked to a lot that claimed %60 in 20 bet sequences but not on going. "Hat" was the only guy that could do that in my opinion.

[BJennet]

They did not win at 70% when I came along in 1990. I never talked to one guy I knew or at a Sarton seminar they really claimed %70 win rate on 2 horses. I talked to a lot that claimed %60 in 20 bet sequences but not on going. "Hat" was the only guy that could do that in my opinion.

CC Brown,

This is my win rate for Sartin top two at BEL and HOL since they opened. Of course the mutuels are correspondingly low, but that's true for any high win rate, proving that win rate isn't what matters - ROI is. You seem unaware that the current Sartin software, Spec 160/RDSS is superior to what Sartinites were using in 1990 - almost twenty years ago.

Cheers,

B Jennet

[Tim Y]

Found the same thing to be true and did a bit of research on just WHERE the sheets and Thorograph sell their wares. Want to know?

ALL THE BIG TIME COURSES where bigger crowds want the passive experience of horse race gambling.

What to do? GO WHERE THEY AIN'T: to the little venues where mom and pop barns run for groups of housewives and weekend warriors of turf speculation.

RESULT? Mutuels like Woodbine, Northlands, Emerald, Fort Erie, etc.

LONG ago I learned one important thing: GO WHERE THE COMPETITION does NOT GO.

Why play the Red Sox when you can play the Pittsburg Pirates.

[matthewsiv]

Please can you give me access to your library.

[RichieP]

Please can you give me access to your library.

Check your PM Matthew

[Honeoye]

You will do well with the Sartin Methodology If you visit the
Pace and Cap library and read the yellow manual, the Dynamics
of Energy and the POW I know there are lots of other manuals
and audio files in there but I feel its bets to start with the basics
first Audio files and videos are for a little later.

You will need to use a Sartin Methodology program
I suggest you start out with either Spec 160 or RDSS
but that is up to you I teach best with RDSS

Reading these manuals will get you a good base
After that. Then you should read follow ups 70 -88
You will now be learning what Howard Sartin considered vital
for todays racing

Bill V.
Please send me a link to the library, so I can read the yellow manual.
Thanks

[Ted Craven]

Please send me a link to the library, so I can read the yellow manual.
Thanks

Please check your Private Messages.

Ted

[tjobert]

Please send a link to the library.

Thanks

[wigopher]

Hi all! I have been studying the Yellow Manual now for quite some time. Trying to fit it in with a newborn is pretty tough! :)

I am curious to how one should apply the Yellow Manual's teachings. Is it great to use it for pace-line selection? Read the Follow ups and begin using RDSS?

Or would one be better off using the teachings of Doc Sartin to create a read out by hand until you reach the 63% win proficiency? To understand the numbers behind RDSS?

I look forward to your replies! Thanks!!!

-Garrison

[wigopher]

I have been studying the Yellow Manual for awhile. It has taken me almost 9 months...I have been busy raising a future 'capper! :)

I have used RDSS with varying degrees of success. Now that I am understanding the tenets of the Yellow Manual, should I use the method prescribed in the manual until I hit a 63% Win Rate? Or do I move onto other materials referenced in this post and use RDSS for this win rate?

I look forward to your comments! Thanks!

-Garrison

[Ted Craven]

Garrison,

Congratulations on your future little handicapper, but apologies for the month long delay getting this post of yours published. I think this Forum got hidden for a while and posts were moderated, and I regret that I didn't see it in the Admin section to 'approve' your post. Anyway, posts here are no longer moderated in advance, so all future replies should go straight through to the board.

Meanwhile, your question - I would suggest not worrying about trying to achieve a 63% win rate win-betting 2 horses. It's all about the average mutuel. If you hit less than 63% but restrict yourself to wager opportunities where your net mutuel is high enough that your hit rate still produces a positive return, without causing you undue anxiety over your number of losses in a row - then I would consider that an approach worth pursuing.

For example, if you have a 40% hit rate on Win bets, betting 2 horses per race (or 2 bets per race, including Win and Place on the same or multiple horses), you will be betting into a range of net odds and a range of mutuel payouts. You need to keep your eye on the minimum net odds your current hit rate can sustain to break even. If you win 4 and lose 6 out of 10 bets in the Win pool (40%) and you only make bets when your close-to-post-time odds are each a minimum of 4-1 ($10.00 mutuel), you bet, say, $10 per race ($5 on each) or $100 and win 4 hits x 2.5 tickets x $10.00 = $100 - you break even. Breakeven is a good place to start, while gaining consistency and fluency in a methodology. Of course, every race you enter at 4-1 minimum will have varied components: 8-1 and 4-1, 7/2 (slipped at post-time) and 6-1, etc, etc. And you have the option of dutching your amount bet according to odds (e.g. 60% 40% low odds/high odds) or even a hedging strategy (bet enough to break-even on a lower odds horse, hoping for an actual hit with more money bet on a higher odds horse).

If your hit rate increases to 50% (10 races out of a 20 race cycle - a very reasonable target betting multiple horses or pools per race), your minimum net odds per race drops to 3-1 ($8.00 mutuel) to achieve a breakeven. Etc, etc

Perhaps 63% hit rate is achievable regularly (12.5 hits out of each 20 wagers) but I would advise not worrying about that. Do keep records (post them here, or email them to me) about your cycles of wagers and shoot for breakeven and an aggessive hit rate - say 50% betting 2 propositions per race (e.g. 2 horses to win, or 1 or more horses to win & place). The modern software tools such as RDSS, and a judicious ability to pass races, or to plunge into races with murky appearing matchups (e.g. maiden claimers, shippers = more public confusion and longer prices, or, study some tracks and distances where recent mutuels have been consistently high), together with records, records, records will help give you the confidence to make bets with the expectation of coming out ahead, regularly. Then you can consider advancing to Exotic wagers such as Exacta, Trifecta or serial bets (doubles, Pick 3s, 4s) - those will be easy with a good foundation in Win Pool betting. Of course there are myriad wagering strategies to employ depending on how the pools size-up: a top ranked favourite can be wheeled in an Exacta or Trifecta, etc, etc and there are many betting references available as you moved forward.

I recommend the 55% Solution Manual to Exotic wagering in the Sartin Library.

In summary, consider moving forward with the modern tools you have at your disposal (e.g. RDSS) rather than trying to only emulate the advice from the Yellow Manual, timeless (and sometimes baffling) as it is.

Hope this helps, and I hope that the good advice from the posts in this Welcome Forum provide further food for study.

Let us know how it's going, and who the li'l Capper likes in the Derby this year!

cheers,

Ted

[wigopher]

Thanks Ted for the follow-up message. I have been keeping some detailed records of my practice handicapping and moved to a real environment of handicapping once I was able to profile my handicapping proficiency at one track and one surface. I am happy to report that I'm winning at at much higher rate than I was using my older methods.

I have to admit, I am extremely excited about where my handicapping is headed. I do know that I still have a lot to learn and continue to focus on money management and finding the overlays. But, I do have a template of expanding my success for other surfaces, tracks and bet types.

Thanks again for all your help!

-Garrison

[JeffH]

Hello,
I just registered with the forum. I looked at the library for the "yellow manual, the Dynamics of Energy, and the POW". I didn't find any such manuals listed. Am I just crazy, or are these nicknames for those particular manuals? This was a suggested route for beginners; and I want to start on the right track.

Thanks!

[Bill V.]

Hi Jeff
Welcome to Pace and Cap

In the library in the MANUALS section page 2

Sartin Manuals (http://paceandcap.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=58&order=desc&page=2)

[Rverge]

Found the same thing to be true and did a bit of research on just WHERE the sheets and Thorograph sell their wares. Want to know?

ALL THE BIG TIME COURSES where bigger crowds want the passive experience of horse race gambling.

What to do? GO WHERE THEY AIN'T: to the little venues where mom and pop barns run for groups of housewives and weekend warriors of turf speculation.

RESULT? Mutuels like Woodbine, Northlands, Emerald, Fort Erie, etc.

LONG ago I learned one important thing: GO WHERE THE COMPETITION does NOT GO.

Why play the Red Sox when you can play the Pittsburg Pirates.
WATCH IT TIMY:mad::mad:(you forgot the H PITTSBURGH)
wb:)

[Jonathan Steele]

Hi Jeff
Welcome to Pace and Cap

In the library in the MANUALS section page 2

Sartin Manuals (http://paceandcap.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=58&order=desc&page=2)

Speaking of "the library," the files in the Pirco Tape Series - Group Session are missing or not where they're supposed to be. I'm unable to download them when I right click on each link and choose Save Target As from the menu.

Regards,

Jon

[Ted Craven]

Speaking of "the library," the files in the Pirco Tape Series - Group Session are missing or not where they're supposed to be. I'm unable to download them when I right click on each link and choose Save Target As from the menu.

Regards,

Jon

Jon, check it out now, I think I got it fixed! (Thanks for the heads-up).

Ted

[JeffH]

Thanks for the help. Don't know why I didn't look to see if there were more pages. Anyway, I just finished the yellow manual, and psychology of winning. I am starting on the follow-ups now (#'s 70-88). I should have realized how important the "mental aspect" was to handicapping. Not for processing information, but the overall approach. I think it was Yogi Berra that said "half the game is 90% mental";). Looking forward to learning more before jumping into the software.

[Ted Craven]

Jeff,

Welcome! Speaking of mental skills, I would strongly urge you (and everyone) to read this post on developing winning mental skills:

Mind for Consistent results (http://sartinmethodology.com/betting-psychology-mind-for-consistent-results)

Let me know what you think!

Cheers, and good luck in your endeavour!

Ted

[Jonathan Steele]

Jon, check it out now, I think I got it fixed! (Thanks for the heads-up).

Ted

Thanks Ted, much appreciated.

Regards,

Jon :)

[Hoof 11]

Howdy Folks
I am new here and would like to read the Yellow Manual, Dynamics of Energy and the POW, i notice they are password protected. If Ted or someone else could pass along the password it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[Bill V.]

Hi Welcome to PaceandCap
you picks three excellent manuals to read good choices

here is what you need
password (http://paceandcap.com/forums/showpost.php?p=60441&postcount=1)

[Hoof 11]

Thanks Bill
I feel like a stooge, i just noticed the password at the top of the page, sorry about that.

[James T.]

I'm just learning the handicapping art. I've not actually bet on any real races yet, but have been doing them on paper from old racing forms. I haven't been able to increase my win percentage from using APV yet. I'm not sure why a horse's class doesn't seem to make much difference to my wins. What really made a big jump is when I figured out I was trying to use too much data to pick contenders. I went back to basics and it helped a lot. Then figuring out how to pick pacelines was an enormous help. And of course, you've got to resist the urge to play every race. If you see a race where there is a questionable paceline, don't play it... If you don't play losing races, your win percentage goes way up!