SYN2 Export File Testing - Help!

[Ted Craven]

Could I get some feedback from experienced Synergism 2 users please! (I'll deal with Syn3 and Syn4 later, OK?) Just SYN2 ONLY, this discussion.

Could I get 2 saved files from people for the following race, per data in the screen images below: Del Mar July 18, Race 1.

File 1: name it ORIGINAL.RAC
File 2: name it ADJUSTED.RAC

1. The race distance is 8.5 furlongs.

2. For both files, enter data only for the 5 horses in the upper section, and name them simply 1, 2, 4, 6, 8.

3. Remember - RDSS reports Call times in tenths of seconds, while SYN expects call times in fifths. So, for 1:12.7 2nd call time, enter 112.3 (which introduces a .10 second inaccuracy, but that's a different discussion ...).


For File 1, enter RAW, unadjusted times from the 1st screen below (RDSS' Original screen). Enter the actual paceline distance I chose: for example, Horse 1's paceline distance is 6.5f. (We're not handicapping the race here, just getting common ground so I know what the file output should be). Please leave off APV and Class adjustments for now. Tell me what you think the Track Record should be, and also the requested setup 2nd Call and Final Time info. Please leave the Open Adjustment for each horse at 0 for now. Please DO NOT enter any shipper or track adjustment values, for now.

After you have entered data for the 5 horses, please save the file as ORIGINAL.

For File 2, enter Adjusted values from the 2nd screen below (RDSS' Adjusted screen). The distance of each paceline should be the same as today's distance: 8.5 furlongs (the call times have been projected to 8,5f, regardless of the original distance). Enter the 1st, 2nd and Final Call Times, and the corresponding Beaten lengths. Save the file as ADJUSTED.



Then, please attach these two files (ORIGINAL.RAC and ADJUSTED.RAC) to an email and send it to me: ted@sartinmethodology.com.

28120
28119

We can deal with the other adjustments such as APV and Class, shipper, open adjustments, etc, later.

Thanks in advance for the assistance!

Ted

[Houndog]

Ted I just sent you the 2 test files you requested. With all the different distances the readouts for the adjusted pacelines make more sense to me.

I think most of the experienced Synergism users here probably would not mix sprint and route pacelines in a route race. As you said this is just to test the export from RDSS to Synergism and not trying to handicap this race.

Regards------Mike "Houndog"

[gl45]

I have question:
what differences would arise in using raw or adjusted times.

[partsnut]

Here's how the race played out.

[Ted Craven]

I have question:
what differences would arise in using raw or adjusted times.

Raw is raw - original paceline distances, original call times and beaten lengths.

Adjusted lines would all be projected/extracted to today's race distance (using RDSS' formulas for extracting sprints from routes, and projecting sprints to routes). At your option, Daily Track Variant and Inter Track Variant are also incorporated (or omitted). A surface adjustment is also applied. So, when the data hits Synergism, it's as if the lines were all at today's distance, all on today's surface, all from the same track and all run over the same relative track surface speed (i.e. the effect of normalizing DTV).

You would simply choose to use RDSS variant set and adjustments (supplied by Trackmaster/Equibase), or do without them.

I'm still trying to understand the effect of the 3 Year Best time component: whether we absolutely need the DRF figure, or whether some other 'par' figure as long as it is consistently applied, is just as functional. Certainly the user can enter a 3 year best figure in RDSS before export (which could be saved) - OR, if these are already saved in the Syner3.par file, RDSS can read that file and extract that time par adn send it in the SYN2 file export. SYN3 already requires that file (and it needs to be accurate, and updated for new track codes), so no reason not to make use of it for the SYN2 file export.

My understanding so far ...

Hope that helps.
Ted

[partsnut]

Hi Ted,

I'm of the opinion and theoretically thinking, if RDSS converts a file to the same file structure as Synergism 2 or 3 the Synergism par times and 3 year best times are not really necessary.Neither is the input of the times for the half and the final times as called for in SYN 2. The newly converted files whether raw or adjusted will be read by the Synergism programs if the data file structure is exactly the same.
As you have stated the file can be adjusted and governed by the RDSS par times and equalized or they can be the "Raw" data. The choice is up to the individual user.
The beauty of RDSS is that it can equalize distances.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

[shoeless]

Parts,

Nice job on race

[Ted Craven]

Does anyone know - definitively - whether SYN2, and SYN3, expects Call Times in fifths or tenths of seconds?

Ted

[shoeless]

Ted,

I use fifths but not sure if you can use the others

[partsnut]

Ted, the time is in fifths.
This is how I manually input the times.

[alydar_ David]

Does anyone know - definitively - whether SYN2, and SYN3, expects Call Times in fifths or tenths of seconds?

Ted

Good question, Ted. I've always used fifths, but can't say definitively that's correct.

I *think* I asked Bob Purdy about this once, but I'm not positive. I spent a lot of time discussing Syn7 with him but am somewhat fuzzy about earlier conversations.

Is he still around? If so, you could ask him. He's always been gracious and helpful.

[Ted Craven]

Thanks guys. The existing EXDC export routines are designed for either fifths or tenths, so when I get something working, folks can try tenths and see if it makes any sense.

I'll do my testing with fifths (though I cringe - as I do when comparing the paper DRF paper call times to the tenths we use, as in: 110.7 tenths becomes 110.3 fifths).

Ted

[Houndog]

This is just an idea but as many of the Synergism II users know their is also an option to run PHASE III as one of the menu options. Even though the program heading says Synergism the difference is that it does not ask for a track record or a set-up time.

I ran a sample race and saved it to disk. All that you need to do is open the race you just saved and the proper program opens. It seems to me the export to Synergism would be easier for Ted to implement without having to deal with track records or set-up times. It seems to me if you exported the adjusted times from RDSS to Synergism this would accomplish the same thing as the user having to worry about Track Records; Set-Up Times; or Par Times in the case of Synergism III and Synergism IV. Perhaps exporting adjusted lines from RDSS would actually be better for most users.

This is just an idea and any other comments or suggestions would be most welcome.

[Ted Craven]

Thanks Mike. I will experiment further, with and without 3YBT and Setup times.

Ted

[Ted Craven]

Here is an example export file for folks to test and comment on - using SYN2.

Race: Saratoga July 20, Race 1.

Original, unadjusted version: 28214

Adjusted version: 28215

Right-click on the attachments above, then choose Save Link As or Save Target As, then save to your SYN2 folder.

Load using SYN2 Menu Option Load a Race from Disk.

The 'adjusted' version equalizes all chosen pacelines to today's 8f distance, adds a Daily Track Variant and Inter Track variant adjustment, also adjusts the one dirt line (#11) to today's inner Turf.

The 'original' version makes none of the foregoing adjustments - just uses RAW original call times.

Neither file version makes any use (yet) of the Open Adjustment, nor of APV or Class rating, nor of the 3 Year Best Time, nor of Setup Times for the 2nd and Final Call points.

Comments?

Following are the RDSS Original, Adjusted and final BLBL screens, respectively (using my choice of pacelines and contenders, FWIW). You can see the call times and beaten lengths used for the Original file on the Original screen, for the Adjusted file on the Adjusted screen. You can compare RDSS' Adjusted final rankings on the BLBL screen to the final rankings in the ADJUSTED file.

28216

28217

28218

[Ted Craven]

Result:

28222

28223

Missed betting (on the phone with Bill V), but anyone should have Win bet either the 9 and 5, or maybe the 4 and 5. But at least, the #5 in a Turf race (most Late, yet 3rd overall odds line)


Ted

[Houndog]

Ted I think that was a good result and considering this was a race on the inner turf you could definitely make a case for the winner especially at those odds.

The RDSS readouts correlate nicely with the Synergism readouts. Considering users have the option of raw or adjusted this would save time for data entry for the Synergism users out there.

Since most of the experienced Synergism users try to stay with pacelines that are of similiar distance and surface this export should be good to go.

Winner ranked #1 on LP and #1 DR.

[Houndog]

Does anyone know - definitively - whether SYN2, and SYN3, expects Call Times in fifths or tenths of seconds?

Ted

Ted I think from the Synergism II manual Bob Purdy states to enter fractions as they are in the Racing Form which was in fifths at that time. This could very well be true for Synergism III and IV also. Page 33 of the Synergism II Manual.

[JimG]

Ted,

Worked fine on my copy of syn2. Where's races 2-10? :D

Jim

[Bill V.]

Hi Ted
I'm sorry you missed the race cause of our phone call
but like my old friend MAC used to say "There will be more "

Both files worked great

I selected to rate the race by EP on the adjusted file
and SP on the original

ADJ - EP
28239

******
Orig- SP
28240

[shoeless]

Ted,

Congrats on getting it done and on hitting the race.


You guys that will be using it please let us know how it is working out

[partsnut]

Ted,

Fantastic Job.

[shoeless]

Ted,

How does it handle the setup times needed for Syn 2?

[Ted Craven]

Ted,

How does it handle the setup times needed for Syn 2?

Jeff,

Still working on it (SYN2). The above examples (both Original and Adjusted) used no 3YBT or 2nd and Final Call Setup times - all adjustments provided by RDSS, including TrackMaster supplied adjustments.

It would make most sense to me that if one exported Original, raw data - then providing a 3YBT and setup times would make sense. I'm working on the user inputting 3YBT in the RDSS Export module, which are then saved for reuse next time the same track, surface, distance arises. 2nd and Final Call times are derived from the fastest times in the selected pacelines and similarly presented to the user as defaults (not saved). These setups are then included in the exported file.

That's the concept - still trying to understand the settings in the SYN2 file. And I haven't started on SYN3 yet.

Ted

[shoeless]

Ted,

Thanks for the explanation and best of luck with it.


Jeff

[Houndog]

Attached in PDF format are the 3 year DRF best times.

[shoeless]

Houndog,

Thanks for putting that up there should help a lot of people out.

Jeff

[gl45]

Jeff,
Tonight MNR race #3 see what you can come up with syn2.
I got 1-3-6-8 but it can change at post time to 3-4-5-8

[gl45]

Thought I had a good chance, but I guessed wrong...poo...poo

[mildeu]

Hi Ted,
A quick and maybe a redundant question.
Do you not already have all of the formulas of the Synergism Programs incorporated into RDSS? and if so would it not be more efficient to just extract this data and present it on 3 screens as in the Synergism lay-out along with the appropriate sorts of course?
I think the Wheel has already been invented.
Anymay thank you for you efforts.
Mildeu

[Ted Craven]

Hi Ted,
A quick and maybe a redundant question.
Do you not already have all of the formulas of the Synergism Programs incorporated into RDSS? and if so would it not be more efficient to just extract this data and present it on 3 screens as in the Synergism lay-out along with the appropriate sorts of course?
I think the Wheel has already been invented.
Anymay thank you for you efforts.
Mildeu

Mildeu,

I don't have the precise Synergism formulas. But Synergism is an outgrowth of Phase III, and all subsequent programs all build, at least to a certain extent, on what went before them. I am not so much interested in replicating SYnergism exactly in RDSS, as in responding to interest in using RDSS as an export source.

I believe that when people use the RDSS adjusted export data in Synergism, they will observe that most of the time the ranked readouts, and other analysis, produces the same output in both programs. When you use different adjustment methods in Synergism - by using RAW export data and the Setup times unique to Synergism - you may indeed get some different outcomes. However, I do believe both programs work from a very common source - compounded, adjusted, incremental velocity.

If I possessed the source code for Synergism, and if there were demand, and with Bob Purdy's permission, I would of course replicate it in RDSS. Though I'm not aiming to do that.

yours,

Ted

[mildeu]

Hi Ted,
Thank you for the quick reply.
I guess I surmissed as much, also I think with your present RDSS data
export, that with a few hides on some columns that a person could emulate the particular read outs.
Thanks
Mildeu