What is it that's different about the BIG winners

[RichieP]

I would sit at the Meadowlands with Bill and my friend Mark along with a couple of others and we would ask that question. I am talking about those making 50k a year and more. SERIOUS money if you will.

I was consumed by finding the answer for years. I am dead serious. 3 years ago I was fortunate to meet someone who was just that. A BIG winner consistently. I have bet with him several times on line for the entire day spanning hours and hours.

For anyone thinking there is some "secret" I can HONESTLY say there IS. You heard me right: there IS a secret. Actually should use the plural here:

Secrets of the BIG winner I know PERSONALLY:

1) Complete and detailed record keeping of what does and does not work.

2) Complete preperation the night before of paceline selection and advance identifying of potential betting opportunities. BATTLE PLAN if you will.

3) Bankroll strictly for wagering. Bets no more than 1 -2 % of bankroll.

4) CONSISTENT wagering strategy. Bets the same way ALL the time. NEVER varies. NEVER

5) Answers his own questions.

to ME this last one is the BIGGEST difference between him and us.
6) 100% EMOTION FREE wagering.

I NEVER have seen anything like it. Bets small relative to bankroll size ( substantial) and NEVER stops betting before ALL his potential opportunities have run. He NEVER goes broke and misses a bet cause of it. NEVER.

Losing streaks have NO effect on his PLAN. Family does NOT interfere cause he goes into his racing "office" and gets ALONE with himself.

He really isnt THAT much different from us as far as contender selection,hiding etc etc. I swear this is true.

what SEPERATES him are the above listed things. There he has NO equal. he is VICIOUS.

His way is having an effect on me slowly. I see changes in both my style of play and attitude. this last thing is MY Achillees heel cause I am way too EMOTIONAL to make it big. He has told me this several times. I HAVE to FOCUS on this weakness man.

EMOTION FREE WAGERING

EMOTION FREE WAGERING

EMOTION FREE WAGERING

EMOTION FREE WAGERING

Richie

[tompkins]

hit the nail on the head: very few prepare for that side of the equation, the money. It is a study all by itself.

[tompkins]

The Odds are on your Side - Cramer
Four Quarters of Horse Investing - Fiero
Dick Mitchell's multiple works all have good plans in this arena

[RAMON201]

I had a similar experience at DRC in the 70s.At that time I was going to the track everyday and I kept seeing this guy by himself never betting just watching.After about a week and a half he finally made a bet.I couldnt take it any longer so I went over and introduced myself and after some small talk I asked why he had only made one bet in a week and a half.He went on to tell me that he worked the midnight shift and he added to his income by betting on horses. He would not make a bet unless he thought the horse was ready.He took all emotion out of the process.He was not in love with any horse , trainer or jockey. He kept hand written records in a little notebook he had with him.He used personal observation along with the information in the racing form. When he felt the horse was ready he bet.By the way, he went to the $50 window. This man had the patience of Job.He was not looking for action , only an advantage over the crowd.Theres a lesson here.

[JimG]

Hi Richie,

A couple of questions about your acquaintance. How did he bet? Was he betting multiple tracks or just one? Did he bet most races?

Jim

[RichieP]

Guys thanx so much for the feedback.
Richie

[RichieP]

Hi Richie,

A couple of questions about your acquaintance. How did he bet? Was he betting multiple tracks or just one? Did he bet most races?

Jim

Hi Jim,

He bets:
win
exacta

he bets one circuit he knows in and out with HUGE bets. Then he spot plays a handfull of other tracks looking for "situations" where he has an edge. These bets are nowhere near as big although still significant Jim.

On his home circuit he must bet at LEAST 50% of the races. Probably closer to 2/3 of them.

Other tracks maybe a race a card. something like that.

Richie

[bobbyb]

Threshold Ritchie - and this guy knew his.

My wife works in an Nursing Home - she admits them and discharges them either thru the front door or back. She never lets it bother her - never. Her thinking was simple: NEVER get PERSONAL.

Putting that into racing context, I very seldom sit with people I know/don't know that well; nor do I ever dine out or visit them off track. I'm trying to take their money and they know it. The gentleman you sat with, no doubt is a pro. He was kind to you - willing to share - very hard if not impossible IMO to find that type of person.

There is one like him that plays at Casino Rama occassionally. You can't get within 10 feet of his space; and I've seen him just get up and walk out when other players have approached him. They know he is a whale and a winner cause of the size of his bets (info gleaned from the tellers) - and he knows they are just trying to weasel a bet outta him. This guy is steely eyed and always cross looking like he's ready to take ya out - must work, as I've seen him personally walk away with MEGA dollars. Maybe he's related to my wife:eek:

bobbyb

[bobbyb]

ooops forgot to include:

This Player I described at Casino Rama - Bet 1 Track only - No Form, just printed notes (this guy was def. prepared). I don't know what his individual bets were (Win/Exact) but I would say on average during a nine race card he would play maybe 4/5 races.
Always purchased a SAM voucher upon entering, and cashed out when leaving. He NEVER bet in line that I ever saw.

bobbyb

[traynor]

RichieP wrote: <2) Complete preperation the night before of paceline selection and advance identifying of potential betting opportunities. BATTLE PLAN if you will.>

Look at this point again. There is something there that is concealed, and it is a major point. Having done this both ways, I can tell you from personal experience that one of the biggest improvements in your handicapping can spin directly from "complete preparation the night before."

In practice, that means pick the bettable races, pick the contenders, and pick the pace lines. The effect can be dramatic; when you separate the highly subjective, intuitive processes from the hardcore, logical, number-crunching processes, it is almost as if you are analyzing a race from two completely different perspectives.
Good Luck

[RichieP]

Threshold Ritchie - and this guy knew his.

My wife works in an Nursing Home - she admits them and discharges them either thru the front door or back. She never lets it bother her - never. Her thinking was simple: NEVER get PERSONAL.

Putting that into racing context, I very seldom sit with people I know/don't know that well; nor do I ever dine out or visit them off track. I'm trying to take their money and they know it. The gentleman you sat with, no doubt is a pro. He was kind to you - willing to share - very hard if not impossible IMO to find that type of person.

There is one like him that plays at Casino Rama occassionally. You can't get within 10 feet of his space; and I've seen him just get up and walk out when other players have approached him. They know he is a whale and a winner cause of the size of his bets (info gleaned from the tellers) - and he knows they are just trying to weasel a bet outta him. This guy is steely eyed and always cross looking like he's ready to take ya out - must work, as I've seen him personally walk away with MEGA dollars. Maybe he's related to my wife:eek:

bobbyb


HI Bobby,
This fella sounds just like the guy Ramon posted about but in a different environment. A loner, fires big, has the answers to his own questions etc.

I am very fortunate indeed to know someone like this.

Good post Bobby!
Richie

[lone speed]

I would sit at the Meadowlands with Bill and my friend Mark along with a couple of others and we would ask that question. I am talking about those making 50k a year and more. SERIOUS money if you will.

I was consumed by finding the answer for years. I am dead serious. 3 years ago I was fortunate to meet someone who was just that. A BIG winner consistently. I have bet with him several times on line for the entire day spanning hours and hours.

For anyone thinking there is some "secret" I can HONESTLY say there IS. You heard me right: there IS a secret. Actually should use the plural here:

Secrets of the BIG winner I know PERSONALLY:

1) Complete and detailed record keeping of what does and does not work.

2) Complete preperation the night before of paceline selection and advance identifying of potential betting opportunities. BATTLE PLAN if you will.

3) Bankroll strictly for wagering. Bets no more than 1 -2 % of bankroll.

4) CONSISTENT wagering strategy. Bets the same way ALL the time. NEVER varies. NEVER

5) Answers his own questions.

to ME this last one is the BIGGEST difference between him and us.
6) 100% EMOTION FREE wagering.

I NEVER have seen anything like it. Bets small relative to bankroll size ( substantial) and NEVER stops betting before ALL his potential opportunities have run. He NEVER goes broke and misses a bet cause of it. NEVER.

Losing streaks have NO effect on his PLAN. Family does NOT interfere cause he goes into his racing "office" and gets ALONE with himself.

He really isnt THAT much different from us as far as contender selection,hiding etc etc. I swear this is true.

what SEPERATES him are the above listed things. There he has NO equal. he is VICIOUS.

His way is having an effect on me slowly. I see changes in both my style of play and attitude. this last thing is MY Achillees heel cause I am way too EMOTIONAL to make it big. He has told me this several times. I HAVE to FOCUS on this weakness man.

EMOTION FREE WAGERING

EMOTION FREE WAGERING

EMOTION FREE WAGERING

EMOTION FREE WAGERING

Richie

This thread is 7 years old, but I really like the mind set that Richie P describes in this thread......Where is the focus?????

Emotion Free Wagering.....

Success is when preparations meets opportunities....

Thanks for sharing Richie....

[lsosa54]

7 year old post and still absolutely valid.

A couple of years ago live at the track I saw someone that might be considered by many an "expert" in their field, supposedly profitable. They were betting just about every race and absolutely screaming at the tv monitor at the horses he had money on and screaming in celebration when he got the money on a longshot and screaming in disgust when not.

That spoke volumes to me as I had never met a winner who screamed at the tv monitor or screamed at jockeys or trainers after the race, and I met plenty of these kinds of 'cappers attending the SoCal circuit live for many years. It took ME a long time to get rid of the emotion in my betting and to stop blaming others or other factors for a loss. I also used to yell at the tv monitor while the race was running.

One could do worse than printing out Richie's original post and taping it on their wall.

[Bill V.]

Wow Lou
You hit a great point that has had a big impression on me for many years
It happen to me at Pace and Cap day up at Saratoga
There was a "name" over at the Paceadvantage tables
He was a real big shot with his own software and methods
A real Sartin hole digger. He made a grand entrance as he set up a small office at his table,
He made a good impression, well dressed and it looked like he had his
records ready for referense

Everything seemed too good to be true. Until the races started.
Just as you say I was so turned off watching him scream for
$6.00 winners and scream in horror after loses.

I realize some people act differenly in public perhaps his
reactions were from being nervous in public. but still something did not seem right .

I have the benifit of knowing Richie and some of his friends
Even when Richie and I had too pool our money just to make a
$2.00 win bet He would act cool and never once did I see him get
upset after a loss.

I on the other hand would go into a depression.
I was very far from being a pro. I have been working on the
journey to get there all these years later.

Bill

[lsosa54]

Bill, I also had the opportunity to sit for a day handicapping and betting with Dick Mitchell, Barry Meadow and Ron Ambrose in a private enclosed box at HOL - just us four. I attended a couple of the Jim Quinn, Tom Brohamer, Frank Romano seminars done at SAX in the early 90's which were fairly small groups as well.

Not one of them yelled and screamed at the monitor while the race was running. If they took a tough loss, they didn't like it but they never let it affect their emotional state and would just go on to their next play. They would not change their future bet size or betting plan.

Just like Barry described in his book, I watched him spend most of his time looking for value in exacta payoffs - he was very focused.

Just think about how a consistent, professional .300 career hitter in baseball conducts himself, and he fails 7 out of 10 times. If he let each failure affect his next at bat, he wouldn't hit .300 for long.

[lone speed]

Bill, I also had the opportunity to sit for a day handicapping and betting with Dick Mitchell, Barry Meadow and Ron Ambrose in a private enclosed box at HOL - just us four. I attended a couple of the Jim Quinn, Tom Brohamer, Frank Romano seminars done at SAX in the early 90's which were fairly small groups as well.

Not one of them yelled and screamed at the monitor while the race was running. If they took a tough loss, they didn't like it but they never let it affect their emotional state and would just go on to their next play. They would not change their future bet size or betting plan.

Just like Barry described in his book, I watched him spend most of his time looking for value in exacta payoffs - he was very focused.

Just think about how a consistent, professional .300 career hitter in baseball conducts himself, and he fails 7 out of 10 times. If he let each failure affect his next at bat, he wouldn't hit .300 for long.

I have heard that Frank Romano was a heavy hitter (bankroll wagering) at the races....

I had attended that same seminar by Brohamer and Quinn ...I believe it was Best Pal's second year in the Big Cap at Santa Anita....Best Pal blitzed the field the year before when trainer Gary Jones was blessed to be handed over the training of Best Pal after it was taken away from Ian Jory....Jory did a masterful job training Best Pal, prepping Best Pal towards the Big Cap as a major race objective. John Mabee showed impatience and handled the situation horribly....But hey, he was the owner.....

I remember clearly that Brohamer kept telling the crowd that Best Pal had no pacelines that made him competitive for the Big Cap.....He was peppered with questions from all sides during the seminar but Tom kept cool and stuck to his position that Best Pal had no lines.. Tom kept reiterating, "Where's the line????"


Betting mindset takes time to develop and the desire and focus to achieve it...It takes a strong fortitude to take our emotions out of the equation especially, when the majority of the crowd are yelling, shouting, and screaming at the numbers, jockeys, and trainers, and the people around them...

[lsosa54]

I have heard that Frank Romano was a heavy hitter (bankroll wagering) at the races....

He sure was. However, he bet on low priced horses and many favorites. He researched the heck out of trainer stats, individual horses, and how a trainer did when he placed a horse in a particular situation/condition. He was as detailed as they come - again, the common success characteristic of keeping records. When he bet, he knew he had explored every angle and statistic about the horse, jockey, and trainer. He did use figs but they weren't primary for him.

Believe his wife had a very good job and he left SoCal due to her job relocating.

I had attended that same seminar by Brohamer and Quinn ...I believe it was Best Pal's second year in the Big Cap at Santa Anita....Best Pal blitzed the field the year before when trainer Gary Jones was blessed to be handed over the training of Best Pal after it was taken away from Ian Jory....Jory did a masterful job training Best Pal, prepping Best Pal towards the Big Cap as a major race objective. John Mabee showed impatience and handled the situation horribly....But hey, he was the owner.....

Remember that episode well. A lot of the trainer community felt bad for Jory. Gary Jones was a respected and very good trainer and I don't remember him being accused of lobbying for the horse. I think you're right about Mabee.

I remember clearly that Brohamer kept telling the crowd that Best Pal had no pacelines that made him competitive for the Big Cap.....He was peppered with questions from all sides during the seminar but Tom kept cool and stuck to his position that Best Pal had no lines.. Tom kept reiterating, "Where's the line????"

Not sure I was there that specific day but Brohamer was usually correct in his approach and thinking. Best Pal was a professional race horse and he had the handicapper's respect. Won the Big Cap at 4 and then finished 2nd when he was 7. What a Calbred!

Betting mindset takes time to develop and the desire and focus to achieve it...It takes a strong fortitude to take our emotions out of the equation especially, when the majority of the crowd are yelling, shouting, and screaming at the numbers, jockeys, and trainers, and the people around them...

Agreed. I think some of it is the maturity we acquire by aging, raising a family,etc. While the ability to bet online makes it a more lonely pursuit, it does eliminate all that outside noise when one is there live.

[Bill V.]

Not that I am betting that much but I do split my time 50/50
betting in the office or down at Del Mar in in the surfside
racebook or in the main track building during live racing.
I seem to do better in a live action setting. I think at home two factors hurt
At home its a challenge to stay in focus
I find I bet too many races at home
At The track I bet very few races and really focus on the ones
I do at home its too easy to say "what the heck" and push the
submit button.
I don't have any records to support this because when I bet
from Del Mar I use the Doc method of left and right pockets

I do know that ever since 1997
My highest win
My highest trifecta
My highest pick 3
My highest double
My highest superfecta
have all come at the track
only my higest exacta came online
thanks Bill

[atkinsrr]

Richie, Thx for the great post..I've been with the Methodology since 1990 and due to jobs and business could only work on racing part time..but have constantly worked on the things listed in your post..the 2 hardest for me was building the bankroll and emotion free wagering...I finally made the move in November 2012 to turn pro and have mastered all 6 things on the list. I relate the emotion free wager to things that I used to do in business, by keeping detailed records I always knew what to expect in business and do the same thing with wagering...there is only one minor change (sometimes) on #3 90% of the time I'm at 2% when wagering but on rare occasions go to between 3-4% depending on the situation..Thanks again for this post..it is going in a picture frame and will be posted in my office to keep me reminded of where I came from and how long it took me to get here......Randy A.

[atkinsrr]

This great sport that we are involved in is like having two jobs in one. Handicapping(preparation) and wagering (getting paid)...95% of the people that go to the races buy the program when they walk in and start handicapping. As Doc said in the Follow Up,,95% lose. You must handicap and prepare at home the night before and in the morning BEFORE going to the track(work). The hardest part of this job is wagering properly..do that at the track after the races have been handicapped at home. Handicapping and wagering decisions need to be kept separate as much as possible. But thanks to those who don't do it right...'cause that's where our money comes from..!!!!!!!!!!