The use of RDSS and the results

[Latekick]

Hi all. I've been seriously thinking about two questions that id like to post here and see the responses that you guys have.
The first being, do any of you play in handicapping tournaments and use RDSS2 while in the tournament, if so, what have been your results and do you trust RDSS2 enough to spend some money to get in the contest and wager aggressive throughout the day too keep yourself in contention.
My next question is, are there any of us RDSS2 handicappers that can actually show a profit and can prove this if possible? It may sound as if im bashing RDSS2 but honestly im not. I feel like this program has taken my handicapping to a level it would have never been at. I love RDSS2 and will always be a user of its fundamentals even though i no longer have the program downloaded since last year,a s of now. But i will always be a believer, i was just curious to see the responses i got to those two questions

[Hoof 11]

RDSS is nothing more than a tool, a means to get you from Point A to Point B. Much like a car, it only responds to your input, if you drive a car into a brick wall, is it the cars fault? If you input crappy pacelines into RDSS, and lose a bet, is it the programs fault?

The onus falls squarely on the user, if you can’t pick pacelines you are basically doomed, it doesn’t matter what program you use. On top of the program itself, you need years of experience and knowledge before you can start turning profits. There is more to handicapping than what RDSS or the methodology is telling you on the surface, it’s the small details that will make you profitable, and that comes with experience. Picking contenders and pinpointing winners is only half of the equation, knowing how to bet properly is a whole other trade onto itself.

I have participated in some handicapping contests with some fellow RDSS users, and some do very well, and some do not. Why do you think that is?

As per your second question, you are asking people to prove their profitability? Seriously?

Expect nothing but crickets....

[Latekick]

Never said it was a all perfect no work system. I've read every article on this site and have been studying for 3 years every single day at least 3 to 4 hours of reading and reviewing in order to make it a natural instinct. I have discussed pace line slection with the best on this site. I know what it takes and i work for it, every day. Didnt mean to offend anyone with this....just asking for some respect from a guy ive never wronged...

[Hoof 11]

Huh? Please explain to me how i disrespected you?

And i wasn’t offended, i thought you were asking the wrong question.

Your question was.... do you trust RDSS enough to use in a buy-in tournament?

And my response was.... it has more to do with the user than the program itself. RDSS has no limitations, you can be successful with the program in all aspects of horse racing, there is no reason not to trust the program.

[Appy]

Kind of an interesting, and somewhat testy, thread.

1) I've yet to enter any tourney play, but am warming to the idea.
2) RDSS is not the only program/tool I utilize for handicapping.

Hoof11 has offered some sage comments.
"The onus falls squarely on the user..."
That is fact.
Another fellow asserts the most valuable computer at your disposal is the one perched atop your shoulders.
"you need years of experience and knowledge before you can start turning profits..."
I would amend that to say "years of experience enhance profitable expectations".

" knowing how to bet properly is a whole other trade onto itself."
Absolutely true. I am convinced someone could be a championship quality handicapper and an unprofitable wagerer at the same time.

"RDSS has no limitations"
On this point I disagree. While I have a very healthy respect for Ted AND for his product, IMO any program that does not include an integrated functional database with select-able filtering systems is limited in potential as a stand alone product.

I think asking anyone to prove profitability is an unreasonable request.
For my own part I'm not shy to share some of my winning picks, nor my less fortunate results. I would never publish actual earnings.

[Ryan.p.coli]

Agreed this is an interesting topic-

1. I would get smoked in a handicapping tournament regardless of the tool that I use

2. I've seen screenshots from a couple people's ADW accounts on this site and I know for a fact that they are profitable. Over a long sample size, you're likely going to max out at 30% ROI (I've never really seen anything more than that excluding massive scores).

In order to take your handicapping to that top level you are referencing, velocity analysis is only a piece of the puzzle. I've made recent strides to get proficient with class and form cycle as well.

[Bill V.]

I am in agreement with Hoof

Yes you can use RDSS2 and be very successful, You can also use Phase 3 and do feet per second or you can use Energy or Kgen or any Sartin program. or Bradshaw's match up ..
If you enter the proper pace lines and only enter lines from true contenders

Will you win major buy in tournaments just using the best of last 3 preceptor
and enter 1 line from every horse in the race and hiding the favorite? I doubt it.

However , You will win money day to day if you follow directions from the Follow Up and Sartin manuals also If you read the teaching forum examples and media files here on Pace and Cap The program you use is not important
Your brain and desire to improve and to trust your self is what matters

GS
Bill

[Hoof 11]

"RDSS has no limitations"
On this point I disagree. While I have a very healthy respect for Ted AND for his product, IMO any program that does not include an integrated functional database with select-able filtering systems is limited in potential as a stand alone product.


I personally know a profitable player that uses nothing more than straight PP’s, a pad of paper, and a calculator. I consider myself a pretty good handicapper, but this gentleman puts me to shame, with limited resources to boot.

RDSS users have gone head to head with database software users in a 20 week handicapping contest, and in the end, the RDSS user(s) won.

[polambi]

Let's see....joined Paceandcap in June of 2013 and "no longer have the program downloaded since last year, as of now".
So, basically you did not even use RDSS for 4 months. Keep looking for the black box of your dreams. RDSS is not for you.

[Bill V.]

I personally know a profitable player that uses nothing more than straight PP’s, a pad of paper, and a calculator. I consider myself a pretty good handicapper, but this gentleman puts me to shame, with limited resources to boot.

RDSS users have gone head to head with database software users in a 20 week handicapping contest, and in the end, the RDSS user(s) won.

Hi Hoof
Was the 20 week contest a free no risk contest?
That may be true but we also had many months of FREE No Risk handicapping contest for RDSS users here at pace and cap were I saw many cases of wild selections based on no risk "what the heck " strategy users. These users did well some months and bust out in others. This is why i no longer enter free no risk contest.


Good Skill
Bill

[Ted Craven]

I entered a NHC Qualifier a few weeks ago at Woodbine and finished in the bottom 1/3rd. That said - RDSS provided more than sufficient races from DMR and SAR that day to have put me way over the top. Contest strategy differs from daily play strategy: usually 1 horse WPS versus (for me) typically 2 horse Win or WP betting, plus Exact pools. You are constrained by tracks, sometimes by mandatory races, you have to pick which races to bet and which to pass, you have to bet on non-favourites, sometimes on a day when a given track may be quite chalky, etc, etc.

I have won or finished close on several Contests at PaceAdvantage and here at P&C. I am on the 2014 NHC Tour and fully expect to qualify somewhere to the Finals next February. That said, I am not a very good Contest player overall - yet. That's why I'm practicing. It is simply a different aspect to the handicapping/betting game. It has its merits and rewards, compared to parimutuel wagering.

I know of 2 multi-million a year players who include RDSS among their tools, and I know of a few more who I have first hand knowledge of their betting frequency and profitability over 15 years using Sartin software, now including RDSS. My own wagering is more modest and sporadic (though solidly profitable in 2014), as I am currently focused on running a business rather than primarily betting.

It is possible to make good money; rebates help. Ryan's citing of 20-30% ROI ongoing is a reality (OK folks, you now have official permission to scoff ;)). It is not easy by any means. The way to start - is to start! Finding a good mentor also helps.

Best wishes!

Ted

[Bill V.]

Hi Ted

Each person can devote a certain amount of time and money and enter or not contest based on factors totally unrelated to horse racing handicapping ability.

I too have done well in contest here and at Paceadvantage
Yet I grew tired of the restrictions of tracks and having to work races that were not to my strength. The funny thing is my strong finish in a pick 4 contest
were I only hit 1 week and still finished in the top 3 - I used Val 4 - it was many years ago.

The win percentage you and Ryan are looking for is very in your reach with RDSS or any Sartin progam :) So go for it with all your desire

[Hoof 11]

Hi Hoof
Was the 20 week contest a free no risk contest?
That may be true but we also had many months of FREE No Risk handicapping contest for RDSS users here at pace and cap were I saw many cases of wild selections based on no risk "what the heck " strategy users. These users did well some months and bust out in others. This is why i no longer enter free no risk contest.


Good Skill
Bill
Hey Bill

Yes it was.

While some entrants chose to use that strategy of 'wild swings', it was incredibly stupid from my point of view. When the outcome is based on points and not dollars earned, the best strategy in this case is consistency. I can only speak from our point of view (Ted, Mike, myself), but our strategy was based on consistency, we didn't really take any wild swings whatsoever. We handicapped races exactly the way we would normally do so, and chose our selections accordingly. Nothing fancy, nothing ground breaking, just good ol fashion consistent handicapping.

After everything was said and done, we were one of 4 teams that actually showed a profit, if my memory serves me correctly. I was incredibly proud of what we achieved in the 15 weeks of regular season play, until Hoof convinced Ted not to use a $160 winner in the playoffs......

Back to my original point..... regardless of what you use in your arsenal of tools, it always comes back to the individual. You can have every last resource at your disposal, that doesn't mean you have an advantage over someone that doesn't.

[Bill V.]

Thanks Hoof

I agree with that.

In regards to that contest I was not downgrading your teams methods
and no matter points or $dollars there still is a reward for a wild selection

If yours or any team sticks in a wild "what the heck" horse and it does happen to win or place your getting points. What bothered me was you would never had bet it to win ( as a prime bet )
Maybe you usually bet $50 win bets and when you see this type horse
in your day to day betting you may bet a few dollars maybe across the board,or for $1 put it in as another horse in your exacta or in your horizontals .

But in this contest if you had it in your top 3 picks and it wins or places you get the same points as any other selection. Does that make more sense ?
Also I am PO'd because we missed advancing because in the last race we bet
Horse B and A and D
Horse A and B were our Sartin methodology 2 horse bets.
both are considered equal right ?
The team that ended up edging us out also bet horse A and B
but because they bet the winner A first rather than 2nd they earned more points than us yet we both had the top 2 horses

Thanks
Bill

[Hoof 11]

That’s the rules Bill, horse A gets triple return, you knew that going in. That was one aspect you had to get right, and Ted and i had discussions about horse order, much like betting it’s half the battle of success.

As far as people taking wild swings in contests, that’s fairly normal behavior from the big tournament players, except their swings actually hit and it’s a 1-3 day tourny. What i disagree with is, over a 20 week contest, how consistent can you be taking swings like that, you may have two or three good days out of 15, but you are much better off trying to break even every week. As crazy at that sounds, it puts you in the top 10 every week and you accumulate serious points over the 15 weeks, it’s very gradual but by the end you are sitting up top.

[gandalf380]

For those who are at Saratoga every Monday there is a handicapping contest. $40 buyin. It is a live money tournament. $10 goes to prize fund and $30 is your live bet money. Limited to 250 entrants so total prize fund is $2500. Nice inexpensive way to practice tournament play.

[Bill V.]

over a 20 week contest, how consistent can you be taking swings like that, you may have two or three good days out of 15, but you are much better off trying to break even every week. As crazy at that sounds, it puts you in the top

Hi Hoof

In regards to the top pick earning more than the second pick and earning or deserving more credit
That is not how the real world of betting works. Especially in regard to the Sartin Methodology
So that agin makes me unwilling to par take in these fantasy tournaments.

to what I quoted from you..
We are in agreement here for sure. This is exactly what I was saying from the top. This is why I doubt a person could win a big time tournament using best of last 3 preceptor and hiding the favorite. The top players are so much more consistent.

The other fact you mention also is true. I witness this as score keeper
in our RDSS learn to win contest The best results were from those who stayed at or near the top the longest and eventually hit a good price horse, that put them in front for good, Meanwhile I would see people hit the biggest
mutual payoffs but often they were so deep in dept from loses it did them no good except catch up to the consistent bettors But in a short tournament setting another big longshot would not come around again in time.

Good Skill
Bill

[Jeebs]

I will be using RDSS data and models in tomorrow's $20k game on DerbyWars. I won a $600 contest from Del Mar last week with this strategy and feel that DMR is in my wheelhouse. The perceptor as a guide is a good way to find hidden value horses whose current form isn't so obvious.

[Bill V.]

https://www.derbywars.com/tournaments

Hi Jeebs

That is nice Good for you, what was the entry fee for the Del mar contest ?
Thanks
Bill

[Ryan.p.coli]

Jeebs,

Respect. Congrats on the derby wars win. I myself have trouble narrowing down to 1 horse using RDSS out of the box.

Ted once told me that the Sartin Methodology has 2 parts: the tools and the matchup. Since I've been becoming more proficient with the Matchup on the forums here, my win % has gone up.

If you have any tips as to how you're narrowing down to 1 horse using RDSS readouts alone, please share.

[Jeebs]

https://www.derbywars.com/tournaments

Hi Jeebs

That is nice Good for you, what was the entry fee for the Del mar contest ?
Thanks
Bill

$29 buy-in, 30 people.

I've done well in the big Saturday games there too. Won $4k in the Wood Day game and then $1200 in the Lexington Stakes Day Game back in April. All RDSS.

[Jeebs]

If you are trying to narrow down to 1 horse for contest play, you are probably missing the boat. I generally get between 2 or 3 contenders based on my modeling and play the odds. You won't always hit, but it will put you in the ballpark.

Jeebs,

Respect. Congrats on the derby wars win. I myself have trouble narrowing down to 1 horse using RDSS out of the box.

Ted once told me that the Sartin Methodology has 2 parts: the tools and the matchup. Since I've been becoming more proficient with the Matchup on the forums here, my win % has gone up.

If you have any tips as to how you're narrowing down to 1 horse using RDSS readouts alone, please share.

[Bill V.]

$29 buy-in, 30 people.

I've done well in the big Saturday games there too. Won $4k in the Wood Day game and then $1200 in the Lexington Stakes Day Game back in April. All RDSS.


Congrats again. Contest seem like a whole new world to me.
I can not see myself ever going into one again. However I respect your skills and the desire of the contest players. Winning big money = all good
Winning and doing things at your own pace and making your own way = for me anyway = good :)

Good Skill
Bill

[CEW]

Latekick (and others posting here).....

I've been reading the posts after your question on whether anyone has played or won any tournaments with the program.

I don't use RDSS, but I've been a Sartin player for a long time (I use an old velocity program). I only play in 2 tournaments a year, both at Laurel. The format is real money, $20 minimum bet amount, no limit on the number of bets, starts with $200, and is WPS only. The top 3 finishers keep their bank and get a trip and entry into the World Series at the Orleans.

It took me about 10 or 12 tries to win, which I finally did in 2012. In boiling it all down, there's only one reason I'm competitive in that tournament and that's because I'm using the Sartin Methodology to its fullest, including betting on 2 horses every chance I can. I've discussed strategy with a lot of guys there, especially if I bust out but then stick around to see what happens. I cannot believe how few guys know how to bet 2 or more horses to win.


This is also the same reason I am not competitive in $2 win/place tournaments, like the World Series. After all these years of betting on more than one horse, I hate relying on one horse. I'll admit I'm not good at that. Another reason I don't like the $2 win/place tournaments is that they are so unrealistic. Who goes to the track and plays like that? However, I do realize that if I want to get competitive on the national level, I need to accept the rules and start changing my outlook. Some of those guys at the finals are amazing. One guy I know, who is near the top quite often, knocked down 6 winners out of ten on the final day and zoomed to the top 5.

But closer to home here, my advice to you is make a decision to dedicate yourself to whatever program you use and stay at it. I think playing in a few tournaments will give you a good sense of what you need to work on. To get in the Laurel tournament, you only need $100 (plus bankroll, which is yours).

On your second question: As far as finding out who makes money with the program and who doesn't, you won't get that kind of information here. Its like discussing the stock market, which is my 2nd favorite game. Even with the guys I discuss the market with every day or every week, only one of them actually knows the size of my portfolio. With all the other guys, we discuss good and bad stocks and gains (just like races and payoffs), but not annual gains.

So that's my take on tournaments - best of luck !

Chuck

[Latekick]

Hi CEW, really appreciate the response you gave here. I also don't use the RDSS program but i am a firm believer in the sartin methodology and i try my hardest to transform my brisnet PPS into everything that i feel is important that i have learned through all the reading i have done in the manuals and throughout the site.
Im interested in what your style is CEW, now forgive me if im asking too much here i just am always curious too see how other people make the words that Doc Sartin said, put into action on a day to day handicapping basis. ME personally, im still trying to figure out the best way to handicap using the principles of the sartin method without using rdss and just using my knowledge of pace-lines which i find most important and then going from there and just calculating the fractions and so on and so forth. I recently made it an effort to do all the FPS numbers on my own through my own hand calculator and paper and pencil and then try to use the Brohamer model to track whats winning, but that just seemed to takes HOURS of calculating and i have a pretty busy schedule, so i never got a real feel of if i was going to profit from this or not.
Anyway, im curious and if you don't mind me asking, how do you put the sartin method to use without the using of rdss?

And your right in every aspect of that answer. Maybe i was just ignorant in asking people there winnings...... I guess i just was a bit overwhelmed with my day at the track that day and we all know that feeling of thinking you have it all right and it all goes wrong. Anyway though, im really beggining to get interested in learning the ways of a handicapping tournament so thank you for your input and God Bless.

[CEW]

Latekick.....

I take it you want to make your own numbers rather than subscribing to RDSS or another download program. So it might be the expense of it or also it might be that you just want to flat out create your own figures. The latter is what I do.

I had all the Sartin programs though Thoromation and a few after that as well. When it seemed that the end was near for software support from Howard Sartin, I looked into some download programs like Synergism 6 and a few others. There were some things a didn't like about those available download programs, so I set out to create my own so that I would not have to rely on any service or program that would need support. The other reason I wanted my own program was to get into tournament play - where I needed to speed up the process...handicapping multiple cards the night before, etc. This was an important step for me in terms of getting more competitive in tournaments.

So I hired my own programmer and we did my own download program using DRF Formulator. This was more work than you can imagine, but I've had it working for years now. And every year or two, we do some updates and smooth out certain features. It is basically velocity from the old Phase III with some adjustments. It runs about like Synergism II for the sprints and like the old meridian adjustment for the routes, if you know that term.

I used to do all the calculations with a calculator, so I know what you are saying about all the work. You could consider Phase I (or TPR, which stands for Total Pace Ratings) which is detailed in "Pace Makes the Race" (Dick Schmidt and Tom Hambleton's book). These numbers can be hand made in minutes and are almost as effective as velocity. Schmidt would tell you they are better for a number of reasons. (I was in a week long class with him in Vegas one time, and he tore the place up with these numbers).

You asked about how I put things to use. Its Phase III from the old Yellow Manual. I'm a 'throwback' ! The readouts include FW, EP, SP, TT, Hidden, plus the 3 fractions. These are what you are probably cranking out on a calculator.

One way to speed things up for you is to write a spreadsheet. You still have to manually input the pacelines, but it recalculates every time you hit the enter button. I have spreadsheets that I've written which I use to fine tune my adjustments. If you haven't used spreadsheets, its not so difficult. I use them with the same confidence as my program, say if I can't get a card downloaded. Something for you to consider.

If you're not familiar with the Phase 1 total pace ratings, take a listen to the Las Vegas seminar tapes in the Audio Collection on the site here. Somewhere near the bottom of the first day, Schmidt and Hambleton give an hour or two clinic on the numbers and their application.

Stay in touch and let us know what direction you're headed in.

Regards,

Chuck

[Ryan.p.coli]

RDSS gives you the velocity, TPR #'s, all the corollaries. Also- the downloads of RDSS are the same price as the cost of Brisnet PP's (I download the Brisnet Ultimate PP's for my father when I go to the track with him and I generally handicap on my computer). He's more of a class handicapper than a pace handicapper- so I understand him wanting to stick with what he's used to.

You don't have to use the BLBL screen to handicap with RDSS. From what I understand, the different RDSS screens are just upgraded versions of classic Sartin Programs. As a newer Sartinite, I couldn't remotely imagine trading in my RDSS program for any of the classic programs. It also assists with the matchup analysis... which is where I have spent most of my recent learning efforts.

Calculating velocity figures by hand seems like an awful lot of work. In Modern Pace Handicapping, I like how Brohamer encourages you to do it by hand at first (for learning purposes), but I could automate that process in excel in 15 minutes.

Lastly, the Matchup is one of the most powerful tools of the methodology. It would do you some good to spend some time reading RichieP's posts on this forum.

[Latekick]

Do you know which of the vegastapesdescribe how Hamilton and Schmidt made their figures and applied the? I do manual calculations and anything to speed up the process would be great

[MikeB]

Do you know which of the vegas tapes describe how Hamilton and Schmidt made their figures and applied the?

The Hamilton and Schmidt method is described in their book, available at Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0006PH0UM/ref=tmm_other_meta_binding_new_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=new&sr=1-1&qid=1408590116). It is a paper and pencil method, and it is not a pace figure or a measure of velocity or energy as those terms would be used here or in Brohamer's work.

[sureshotlink]

The formulae for creating your own TPR are contained in " Pace makes the race"

Curious? but why would you want to take on such a tedious task when all the figs are right there for you in RDSS2 or any other sartin program. Top priority should be learning how to properly construct your investments and learning when to pass races when the obviously favorites are bound to win. Just these two things only will improve your R.O.I.

Footnote* I use nothing else but RDSS2 in live bankroll tournaments



Continued Success!

Paul link