Big Red Tribute
 

Tim you might want to check this out.....tribute to Secretariat over at HTR.

http://www.homebased2.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8904

Not really into History part Tom, but enjoy watching good horses strut thier stuff

Thanks go to you and Bob - Good viewing

Sorry Charlie. I'm not picking on you, but calling Secretariat "a good horse" is kind of like calling a Rolls Royce "an ok car".

Secretariat IS the Greatest Horse of ALL TIME. (IMNSHO)

In the Derby....every 1/4 mile faster than the previous 1/4 mile. Let me know the next time you see a horse do that going 1 1/4 miles.

In the Preakness....went into the clubhouse turn last and came out of the clubhouse turn first. Again, let me know the next time you see a horse do that.

Then there is the Belmont......109.2 is fast for any horse going 6f. But going 1 1/2 miles? And finish like he did? Unheard of!

Again, my apology, but Secretariat was much more than "a good horse". He WAS the BEST there was, even up to today and probably for many years to come.

I have my own video of him running around his paddock at Claiborne and our feeding him (and his begging for) peppermints. November 5, 1985 (Bill's birthday he told me too) and it was akin to meeting Mohamed Ali, Micheal Jordan, Wayne Gretzky, Babe Ruth, Joe Montana and Johnny Unitas, and Kharem Abdul Jabar all in the same individual. The rational part of me reminds me otherwise, but one wanted to talk in hushed tones around him, almost bow in his presence. He was in the lead stall in the front barn at Claiborne in the same stall as his sire Bold Ruler with Spectacular Bid as his "friend" across the aisle.

If you tried to "make up" a story of him and sold it to make a Hollywood movie NO ONE would believe such schmaltz. A product of a LOST coin flip at Saratoga several years before, he was the second choice of a mating of two mares to Phipp's Bold Ruler. They got their choice of the first mating, The Bride, never won a race.

Meadow Stud was on it's last legs and Christopher Chenery, an emeritus professor of economics, was dying with the life's wish of having bred a Kentucky Derby winner. The business was going poorly and his daughter Penny took the reigns to see what she could do. The family clamored for a sale dispersal but she wanted to hold on for "just a while longer." Dr.Cherney died in January 1973, with the knowledge that they had indeed bred a Derby winner in Riva Ridge, but never got to see Big Red's three year old season. Among his other horses of note, Chenery owned and bred Hill Prince, the 1950 U.S. Horse of the Year; Cicada, champion filly at 2, 3, and 4; and First Landing, the 1958 U.S. Champion 2-yr-old colt.

So Hollywood would have laughed at a plot that said a RED horse in WHITE and BLUE colors would make his first start on JULY 4th 1972 but get wiped out at the gate by a colt named Quebec. That experience would forever make him "gate shy" and he never broke on top.The only time he was ever out of the money (much akin to Man O'War's loss being left at the post with Loftus in the Sanford). The rest, they say is history. Race after race doing the unbelievable.

I have written to and responded with horsemen all over the world and the jury is UNANIMOUS in their acclaim. Many an Aussie knows how great he was as the track record holder in the Melbourne Cup is his son Kingston Rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingston_Rule.

Risen Star in many an other year hd he been luckier, would have been a Triple Crown winner. I have his Belmont photo as I do his father's. Lady's Secret was in a class by herself (I just looked at her Breeder's Cup Distaff win, BEFORE D. WAYNE ruined her, and Penny Tweedy is right there in the winner's circle) and General Assembly broke the track record in his Traver's win.. Chief's Crown was out of a Secretariat mare.

No horse ever reproduces himself but his influence was mainly through is being a top broodmare sire.

Dr. George Pratt who studies the biomechanics of race horse motion said, in a documentary done for CBC called A Magical Way of Going said: "If you put all the biomechanical measurements from Secretariat into a computer program, smoke would come out the back, He SHOULD JUST NOT BE."

I still pause every May and October 4th each year to remember that ONCE for a scant two years, we saw something as close to perfection that has ever been seen in a race horse.

I have never seen ANTHING CLOSE and I have seen many of them.

Tribute to Big Red!
 

Hey folks! I hope that you don't mind me chiming in?.. :) I have always been told and I have always personally believed that if one is fortunate enough in r life you might just get to see "THE ONE"! Sometimes, it is a boxer, it may be a golfer as phenomenal as Tiger Woods. It could just be someone as unique and unparalleled in talent and presence as the incredible Michael Jordan who I was so very fortunate to be able to see play live at least a dozen times or more when he was in the prime of his career. I have that photo in black and white of the famous stretch run from the 1973 Belmont signed by Ron Turcotte on the rail of the photo where Secretariat appeared to be the only horse on the track near the end of the race and it sits on the wall right above my work station. When Secretariat won the Belmont and went on his Triple Crown Tear I was only 9 years old and I had no idea of what a horse race even was at that time. Heck, just watching him perform via film footage to this very day simply takes ones breath away.

Several years ago when I watched ESPN's Top 50 athletes of all time and Secretariat was listed well within the upper echelon of that grouping many people scoffed at the notion that a horse could even be considered to be amongst the Top 50 Athletes that ever lived. IMHO, it would have been a crying shame if he would have been excluded from such a list. I always heard stories about him later in his life, for example that when it was eating time out in the pasture that the other horses in his company wouldn't even eat until Big Red sauntered over to the trough to begin feeding. Even the other horses inherently knew that this horse in their company was something truly special. :)

I only wish that I would have been able to see him run live. If anyone out there on the board ever got to see him run live, I would very much enjoy hearing what your thoughts were on the whole experience. WOW!! :)

Have a Great Day and Good Skill to Everyone.

Vinnie

Ravens Pass was a good Euro horse, he beat US good horses like Curlin in the Classic, but i'm not going to say he is the Greatest horse in the World as i just don't know if that is correct and the same applies to Secretariat

If you or anyone else want to assign Great, best or whatever tag to Secretariat, it's fine by me

*** again. NO HORSE is defined or measured by a single performance NOT NOW, NOT YESTERDAY, NOT EVER.

Find a copy of Robertson's The History of Thoroughbred Racing in America ***

QUOTE:"for example that when it was eating time out in the pasture that the other horses in his company wouldn't even eat until Big Red sauntered over to the trough to begin feeding."

Breeding STALLIONS are overtly agressive and are NEVER in the same paddock as they might fight one another. GOOD STORY, but a story nonetheless. They graze in the pasture but eat out of a feeding tub, in their stall just like all horses in barns.

Looks like ***

http://www.chef-de-race.com/articles...ighweights.htm

Above is a list from Timeform and according to thier list, Sea Bird is the "Greatest" , is that correct??

Long time turf analyst Charles Hatton in the 1974 American Racing Manual:" Secretariat was a super horse rather than horse of the year, VETERAN turfmen, sophisticates of DEEP experience and broad , informed tastes (those who have been around long enough to have seen the contenders and the pretenders), pronounced him HORSE OF THE CENTURY."

People on the INSIDE, not folks who are "at arms length" surrogates and think they know racing, all agree.

How can you pronouce Secretariat, the HORSE OF THE CENTURY, when the horse never faced horses of the ability of a Sea Bird, a Dancing Brave, a Mill Reef, a Brigadier Gerard etc, etc, etc


How can you pronouce Sea Bird the GREATEST, when he never faced horses of the ability of a Secretariat, a Ghostzapper, a Shergar etc, etc, etc

The accolade is meaningless except in the mind of those assinging the tag

***** you left out Ribot, Brigadier Gerard, Nashwan Nijinsky, The Minstrel, Saddler's Wells. and a host of others.

Sitting in front of a computer is not the same and living and understanding historical and international perspective.

I wore a shirt to the 1986 Breeder's Cup TURF announcing that Dancing Brave would NOT adapt to Santa Anita. Buy a copy of Perry Lefkio's great book The Breeder's Cup the Greatest Day on Turf and turn to page 178 to read all about it. I loved listening to the pinhead Pat Eddery tell eveyone how great this one was when it was a simple matter that the animal needed a long run to the line and on that course there was only 900 feet and the idiot rode the colt the same way he tried to run that long broad uphill stretch in Paris. I loved to root against him he was so clueless in his North American rides unlike Freddie Head or many other good ones who learned to adapt to the changing course layouts.

It *** learn

Good Horse A has to beat good horse A, B, C and D to be assinged the accolade of Greatness, THE HORSE OF THE CENTURY or whatever

The same thing happens in Euroland all the time, we get - Arkle is the best Chaser ever

The people stating this don't know if that is correct , as he never faced a Desert Orchid, a Moscow Flyer, a Kauto Star etc, etc

The Great, best tag only exists in thier mind and not in actual reality

This is a great topic. Watching Secretariat's videos always sends shivers down me.

However, subsequent posts by EVERYONE, must remain civil.

:)

Ted

Red Rum and Desert Orchid would probably lay claim to that accolade on par with Arkle in 1965-66 at Cheltenham. One does not win the Grand National three times and not have that mantle bestowed upon them.

Red Rum winning National x 3 is a very good achievement, but it does not mean Red Rum was the GREATEST Chaser, just like Secretariat, Sea Bird winning thier respective races does not mean they are the Greatest, Horse of the Century etc, etc

The accolades only exist in the mind of the person assigning them and not in actual reality

Tim,

Welcome back.

Do not be confused. I will NOT let you and Charlie natter at each other and hijack this thread. If you wish to continue in the original vein, either one of you, do it in Private Messages to each other. Not here.

Thanks.

Ted

Talk to twenty experts in thoroughbred history.

I will wager at least 18 if not 19 of that 20, people who know horse racing from Eclipse onward, would rank Red in the top three of all time. Dirt, short long, on the pace, from the clouds, turf (first time on the lawn against the then reigning grass champion, he put that one away and broke the track record)

While it is fun to be different, when there is that much evidence from that many reputable sources, it is difficult to make any rational argument, based upon the logic and facts available, to mount against that point of view.

If there could be any argument against this one, was that in close finishes was it just this speed that put them away??? The ONLY rational argument against his greatness was that point of view offered by a horseman I met several years ago in Vancouver and he pointed out that in stretch runs, where the mettle of an animal is really tested, when there was a chance for his to battle late, he backed up a few times Wood, Whitney, Woodward. The only rationale I have ever been offered to weaken his place in history.

Talk to experts, talk to experts, Timeform are so called experts, they have Sea Bird at Top of thier list

Are they correct in implying Sea Bird is the best, i do not know, you don't know, they don't know, why?? because Sea Bird never faced a Secretariat, a Ghostzapper, a Shergar and so on and so on


Only a race or a series of races where these horses met would tell you who was the Greatest, the Horse of the Century or whatever and i'm afraid that is never going to happen


The accolades exist only in the mind and not in reality

Big Brown and Curlin, on one side you have BB wins on other side you have Curlin wins

We wanted this race , why?? so the reality confirmed what these minds thought

No meet, no reality - just thought and opinion of who was best

Match races, almost every one I have ever studied from Zev/Papyrus Swaps/Nashua, onward, are a matter of racing STYLE, not ability. I was at Hollywood Park for three of them Typecast/Convenience, Chirawiri(a quarter horse)/Indulto and Miss Musket/Chris Everett and just like every match race I have ever studied: the first horse out of the gate was the first horse at the wire. It is 'cat and mouse' and has no reflection of a real race.

Even the match races within a race AlydayAffirmed Easy Goer/Sunday SIlence followed the same style: speed wins

Not talking about a Match race Tim

The BB camp, the Curlin camp - the fans of both, wanted Big Brown to go to BC so we could see the reality of which horse was the best and not what existed in our minds

Correct Ted

If a poster does not do it, there is no response to it and the thread remains a civil discussion just like this one

http://paceandcap.com/forums/showthr...?t=5328&page=8

Absolutely NOT! THere are 100+ horses on the list to which you provided a link. They all rate within 10 points of each other. After you review the below information you will see that SECRETARIAT rates out to 151-153 on the Timeform list. A full 6-8 points higher than the top horse on the list. As in real life, other horses just don't compare to the GREAT SECRETARIAT!

We are often asked how horses of recent vintage compare with the stars of the past, and we wish we could offer a definitive answer. Our figures took their present form when we started compiling them for an on-line data service in 1986, but in earlier years they were still in an evolutionary phase. Our figures of today aren't exactly comparable to our numbers in the "decade of champions" -- the 1970's -- when Secretariat, Seattle Slew, Affirmed and Spectacular Bid competed. I believe these great horses regularly earned numbers that would have trounced the champions of the 1990s; when I attempt to improvise a figure for Secretariat's record-shattering victory in the Belmont, I estimated that he earned a 139 -- probably the best race ever run. - Andrew Beyer
Most of us are familiar with Beyer speed ratings in the Daily Racing Form. Some are familiar with England's Timeform ratings. I was reading some interesting stuff yesterday on an English horse racing WEB Site and they had a helpful hint for converting between the two. Whatever the Beyer rating is, they ( Timeform ) say to add 12 to 14 points to the Beyer rating to get a close equivalent of the Timeform rating method. I guess we shouldn't worry too much about the 2 point difference. at least we're able to get a close ballpark figure.

OBJECTIVE landmarks once laid down no matter the continent they ran on, day in day out, dirt, mud, turf on the lead coming from the clouds, different riders different courses rank this one in a CLASS BY HIMSELF.

This argument has whiskers on it. If ONE person thought this at ONE time in history that would be one thing, but just about ALL of the best and brightest agree that other than maybe Fair Play's best son or possible the big Cy and SHORT the good doctor are the only ones CLOSE in ability adaption or fluid mechanics and even at autopsy his heart was the largest that veterinarian had ever examined.

When Secretariat was put down the autopsy showed that is heart weighed close to 22 pounds,the average Thoroughbred heart weighs 9 lbs. Secretariat's heart was all in porportion, not a mutation. The mutation large heart was found in the horse Eclipse at autopsy in 1789. Eclipse's heart weighed 14 lbs. We now know by research and the hard work of scientists and geneticist like Marianna Haun, that horses carry a gene for a large heart. It is passed through the X chromosome in the mare. Measurements of more than 400 horses with a ECG has found that the X-Factor is 100% consistent. It is possible to track the large heart from sire to daughter to granddaughter and grandson and to great granddaughter and great grandson. The heart scores on certain lines are 100% consistent. These lines come from Princequillo, War Admiral, Blue Larkspur, and Mahmoud."

The numbers do not tell you who is best, Greatest FTL - they are just the mathematical recordings of performances according to Timeform, Beyer methodology's

Only a race or series of races where these horses meet can tell you what the reality is

Numbers alone NEVER serve as proper comparisons. I have heard the argument for example, that based on NUMBERS Citation would have gotten beat in the Derby by Monarchos. That is baloney since steel shoes, nutritional and exercise physiology had made the more current thoroughbred the recipient of many benefits that the former did not have.

The intangibles, the overwhelming superiority of the manner in which this champion not only defeated his rivals but destroyed both them and the standards of the CLOCK. No animal has come close those performances.

On the dirt, other than Rumbo, no colt has ever closed like the first Saturday in May. I have put races in the Sartin methodology since the mid 80's and there has not been a single example, in all that time, of ANY horse, let alone a three year old, putting in fractions (and surviving them) like this one. (around 166 total energy and he ran LATE) NOT a single example, even on grass where BIG closing fractions are a common factor.

The Triple is grueling to many who show it by Belmont time: Majestic Prince, Canonero, Charismatic and many many others, but this one FLOWERED and became MORE dominant as the test got harder. ONE OF A KIND.

Ever see any other horse go out head to head at 12 furlongs in 1:09 plus and last, let alone open up? Eased up, past the finish, he broke Swaps world record for 1 5/8ths. Ever see a horse in their FIRST grass race,meet and defeat the leading grass horse of the year while setting a track record at THREE? Doubtful.

I'll repeat one more time

Only a race or series or races where these horses meet can tell you who was the best, Greatest, horse of century etc, as that would be the reality, the rest is thought and opinion



Get several people to look at a racecard and you'll get several different opinions of who will win, who is best etc

Only the race result tells you the reality

His potential value as a stud prospect ALMOST landed him in Ireland, the land of the stayers.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=rgig...um=1&ct=result

charlie
 

That exactly what big red did when took the triple hardest test of all and in grand style.In bel dominate early and closer all in same race

Joe Hirsch was one among all of those horsemen who relegated superlatives to the farthest reaches of their vocabulary only to bring them to bear when they were really relevant. I recall when discussing Cougar II with Whittingham they referred to him as a "useful" horse and left it at that. Here he is talking to Lauren about the Triple crown races of 1973. Few rational informed individuals owning even a smattering of historical perspective could rationally dispute what is printed here. Then there are the comments of horsemen Hollie Hughes who actually saw the greatest ones of the century. Ask HIM where this one belongs on that scale...just read down the page.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=JbJc...um=4&ct=result

http://www.racingmuseum.org/hall/trainer.asp?ID=256

"He has a neck like a buffalo, a back as broad as a sofa," Time magazine reported. But Newsweek sports columnist Pete Axthelm, who never saw a racetrack he did not wish to attend, glided across the typing turf.
"Secretariat generates a crackling tension and excitement wherever he goes," Axthelm wrote. "Even in the kind of gray weather that shrouds lesser animals in anonymity, Secretariat's muscular build identifies him immediately; his glowing reddish coat is a banner of health and rippling power. Magnificent enough at rest ... when he accelerates ... he produces a breathtaking explosion that leaves novices and hardened horsemen alike convinced that, for one of those moments that seldom occur in any sport, they have witnessed genuine greatness."
While Axthelm was waxing poetic, pithy New York Post columnist Larry Merchant (now better known as HBO's sharp-tongued boxing analyst) clicked off his words in Broadway staccato:

"Secretariat," said Merchant, "is the kind of Big Horse that makes grown men weep, even when they are flint-hearted bettors, even when he goes off at 1-10. He is the apparently unflawed hunk of beauty and beast they search for doggedly in the racing charts every day, and never seemed to find. His supporters rhapsodize over him as though he is a four-legged Nureyev, extolling virtues of his musculature, his grace, his urine specimens." If he were to lose the Belmont, Merchant warned, "the country may turn sullen and mutinous."

Some more comments by people who know and were there
 

The true measure of Secretariat's greatness was his performances in big races. As former Pimlico general manager Chick Lang said, "He looked like a Rolls-Royce in a field of Volkswagens."
"I kept hearing Chick Anderson," Turcotte said. "I finally had to turn to see where the other horses were. I know this sounds crazy, but the horse did it by himself. I was along for the ride."

But most impressive was the 31-length gap. It was so big, even the widest angle of the CBS camera covering the stretch run could barely show Secretariat in the same shot as the next-nearest horse, Twice A Prince. As Charles Hatton wrote in The Daily Racing Form, "His only point of reference is himself."

"Secretariat's greatness is measured not by who was around at the time, but by the performances of all who came before him and have come since. and by that standard only a few in history are anywhere close."

http://www.racingpost.com/


Does this achievement make Kauto Star the "Best" Chaser, the "Greatest" Chaser ??

No


It does however confirm what people already knew and just like Arkle, Moscow Flyer, Best Mate, Desert Orchid were, Kauto Star is a good Chaser

Charlie, do you know anything about TIME magazine?
On the front cover of the June 11, 1973 issue TIME Magazine saw fit to put a picture of SECRETARIAT. Other than the picture, there are simply the words "SUPER HORSE" Secretariat. (I doubt that Kauto Star or any other horse you can find will make the cover of TIME Magazine anytime soon.) The cover of TIME Magazine is generally reserved for heads of state, but this one time even TIME Magazine had to relent and put a picture of the GREATEST HORSE OF ALL TIME on the cover.

FTL, we are going round in circles

Time Magazine = thought and opinion

Race or series of race results = reality

No race or races can be run between ALL these good horses, so no reality exists and therefore no one can truly say who was, is the Greatest or the Horse of The Century

What decides who is the Top 3yo each year ? the reality of the race results decide , not our thought or opinion

Time Newsweek and Sports Illustrated all the same week. NO OTHER ATHLETE human or equine has ever done that

Breeders ot thoroughbreds have been a good deal closer to producing a truly faultless creature than the breeders of humans. in this century, there have been, in very general terms, four such horses: Man O'War, Secretariat, Ribot and possibly Sea Bird II.
p.17 Patrick Robinson Decade of Champions

"And one name will always stand shining above the rest, the horse that started excellence in the United States...he had convinced most experts at the end of 1973 that he was possibly the infest thoroughbred race horse who ever lived.For those who followed his career closely, the passing of the years seems only to magnify his massive presence on the race track p. 35 'even now, undimmed by the terrifying swiftness of time, it is possible in a fleeting second to recall those majesty of that fabulous race horse- his collossal stride, his huge girth, those steel tempered front legs smashing down on the track, the pitiful sight of some many splendid horses lurching along in his wake, utterly demoralized by a power and furn unmatched in loving memory on any race track."

Eddie Maple recalls page 37. "There are still a few 'experts' who doubt him, who say he never really did enough to justify all the praise he received. I know he was the best.Since the day he retired, you can take any horse race you like, and Secretariat would have won it easily. And I will say one more thing. Of those critics who doubt Secretariat, not one of them ever rode him. They sure as hell never rode him."

Ask the people who know, who were there and have enough knowledge experience expetise to qualify as experts and they all agree: he was like no other.

That year was the inaugural running of the Marlboro cup. A championship race for the best horses including the older ones on the grounds. The war horses. Secretariat was still only three and had gotten beaten by some of these at Saratoga and in rain soaked conditions elsewhere. He was again susceptible for getting beat. So what does he do? He runs down older stablemate Riva Ridge and they run one two as Secretariat breaks a world record for 1 1/8 miles. The blue and white checkered colors of Penny Tweedy and the Meadow stable was exhilarating to watch as they flickered in the light going one two under the wire like that.

The breeders who put up the six million then wanted one more test for their prize investment. Turf or grass racing. Could Secretariat grass as well? Again, he goes against the best older turf horses in the world who are seasoned in their specialty of turf racing. So what does he do? He steps on the grass for the very first time and destroys the finest grass runners around. Every time, Secretariat was suspect or on the line where he was under the gun to perform, he performed. He proved all the doubters wrong and confirmed what his people were saying all along. Ron Turcotte, his regular rider was just as shy as trainer Laurin in telling the world what they had.

http://www.helium.com/items/126903-s...se-ever?page=2

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...cretariat.html



http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A1119287
The Case for Secretariat

Secretariat won the Triple Crown and made more than a million dollars. His contribution to horse racing is great. He inspired many horse racers and became a racing icon. To many, horse racing is embodied by Secretariat. He is well known today in a way that Man o' War is not.

Secretariat outperformed everyone at the time. Each time he lost, he had a legitimate excuse and later would win against the opponent he lost to. They were simply flukes. His ability to race is incredible, and he never faultered.

The Case for Man o' War

Man o' War simply maintained a better record than Secretariat. They both raced 21 times, and Man o' War only lost once. Secretariat lost four times. Man o' War set three world records to Secretariat's two. Man o' War Stakes was named for him.

He helped restart horse racing when the nation was focusing on World War One. His contribution to the sport is great, and it brought a good deal of attention to the sport of kings. Other than his direct contributions, his blood is in more than 60 Stake winners, including War Admiral, a Triple Crown winner.