Sartin Seminar Woodbine July 7
 

Woodbine has a Sartin Master Seminar, wow, a Dr. too

Join me at Woodbine July 7
 

This is our old friend Tim Y, now a resident of Toronto and working at Woodbine in some capacity or other. (Also known as 46zilzal on PaceAdvantage.com). Whatever people may think of his 'communication skills' here and elsewhere, IMO, the man knows his Sartin Methodology and is well qualified to speak and teach about it.

For the record, I have no involvement with this seminar. However, I will be at Woodbine next Saturday July 7 (perhaps Sunday as well), attending that seminar, and working the races in Champions lounge as usual during the afternoon. Anyone who wants to see RDSS and learn more about the Modern Sartin Methodology in action, or follow up on what they may learn in the above seminar, is welcomed to join me and whomever else shows up for the day. I will bring power bars and cables for computers.

See you there!

Ted

Thanks Ted,
I remember 46 and wish I could be there to see you guys, I see about finding a load to Toronto, or Buffalo, and maybe sneak up there , but not too likely.

I did not mean my post to sound negative, I just wondered who he was, now I know, and wish I could be there.

Patrick

He mentioned on his site that he is going to focus on the wagering side of things more. I wish I could go, but no passport.

Anyway, nice to see tracks doing things to help people learn the game.
My two cents - WO is my favorite track.

Ted, PK, Tom,
There is no doubt TY knows the Sartin Methodology and we crossed paths many times over on PA which I don't frequent any more. TY welcome to TO, but bloom and come out of your opinionated shell, the laws of probability will always be against you, and this is no slight.

How did it go?
 

I am curious how it went for those who there this last weekend?

Wis I could be there, but I was out west.

Patrick

Hey Patrick
It was pretty vague, he painted a broad picture of the Sartin methodology but didn't get into the fine details. His thoughts on betting were basic and i didn't take alot from it, mind you he only had an hour or so to convey all of this so he kept it simple. You didn't miss much except for some coffee and cookies, both Ted and I missed out on the $50 giveaways.

They will post the seminar on the Woodbine site eventually if you want to watch it.

http://www.woodbineentertainment.com...narVideos.aspx

Other than that it was a fun day at Woodbine.

Thanks , nice videos in there, great stuff


Patrick

Hoof 11 good report. I wanted to go but every year around this time I'm in a golf tournament that supports family members with cancer to help them pay the extra bills. It's dear to my heart for many reasons and to listen to TY spout off very vague about the Methodology is far down the list. RDSS is IMO a very logical method for picking winners, though I do not believe in betting 2 horses per race as per the 1st edition of Pace Makes The Race. But I will say which I have steadfastly stood by is numbers are numbers and ratings are ratings the key is the pacelines you select and forming a proper oddsline based on that. I am a heavy bettor based on when I feel the public is wrong and this is my way of going and is probably spot play at it's pinnacle as I believe the public though very good like us is wrong more times than right. And check it out from Doust to Taulbot to Sartin to the vast majority of opinionated experts that came later only Doust, Taulbot and Sartin out front said you will be up against it. I have always believed we are the engine of change and in other things that may be okay but predicting the outcome of a race we have no chance if we are in the adjusting mode, because it's a variable with no conclusive result. I do get myself into trouble now and then because I have opinions but I do believe what I bring to the table is straight goods, no selling of product but just putting out what I have learned over 40 years. The greatest experience is when the light goes on, not cashing a ticket.

trotman,
Excellent, paceline selection is the KEY.

In addition, Class Rating, Race Rating, and Prime Power Ratings from Brisnet are supporting data.

Pace versus these factors points out Value Plays

Incuding measures for speed at the track and distance ratings sets parameters for the Pace versus other ratings.

Who wins that battle produces value plays.







Players who cannot merge the same data on multiple programs do this because of different paceline selection, perhaps limited by ability of the program to choose two types of varying Speed Ratings coupled with an applied point system.

Sartinesque Pacing then gives one photo of projected fininsh while a non photo type of projection is given from data implied in pace but a little more distinct from pace.

I will bet multiple Value Plays on wins and especially on exactas,
yet tifectas and superfectas require resources and much ticket planning
so I will stay with wins and exactas.

It is amazing how hard favorites have in winning their one third of the races.
Yet. without chalk players I have no value plays.

I imagine all players set their own criteria and odds parameters when looking for Value Plays.

It does require a mindset change involving frustration and toleration of ones
weaknesses.
At present I am about halfway there.
Of course, this is not the way for must win mentality players, since you will lose more often than you win but payoffs balance that out.
For me my handicapping weaknesses are worthy challenges for improvement.

Good luck to one and all in your horse racing adventures.

Joseph,
For 40 years I worked alongside a very good handicapper by the name of Andy Smitts. Andy worked alongside of Ray Taulbot and I had the benifit of seeing the last work and notes of those two great handicappers. Where Ray could take a paceline from anywhere in the published lines from his early articles in ATM and his books this changed over time when the form started to list call times and such. I could never put into words what Michael Pizzolla wrote in his classic book Handicapping Magic with regards to the mindset of selecting pacelines but in my opinion it's a must read. It's not about him telling you which lines to pick, it's more about the reasoning about which are the best lines to pick. Then as Doc Sartin would say work a few lines fore and aft to see if the line is most representitive of the horse. I will say that every race and every horse is like a fresh snowflake, no two alike. If all my work matches closely to the track and distance profile, I could be on to something. I never step back should I miss because if in my gut that was the bet in the end it works out. The articles that Ray Taulbot wrote in his last 10 years was the culmination of his and Andy's work. Andy passed away on Mar. 13th 2010 and left me with everything he and Ray ever worked on that was never published.

Here is the video of Dr Tim's seminar at Woodbine: http://bcove.me/usyv7nkk

Comments?

When asked how one obtains software to implement all the complex calculations, Tim asked people to contact him, though he graciously also pointed me out in the crowd as someone with Windows software.

I admit to being curious what his plan was going to be to in response to the inevitable questions re where to get modern software (not having involved me prior) - he wasn't going to hand out copyrighted copies of Speculator 160, was he?

Regardless, Spec160 (and Val4) as DOS programs beg the question sooner or later - isn't there some Windows software to do this stuff? I handed out about 20 business cards, and to all those of you who have joined PaceandCap in the past 2 weeks, and who are now evaluating RDSS - welcome and best wishes in your continued learning.

And a big thank you to Dr Tim and to Woodbine for all their effort in putting on this and other seminars with the mission of educating horse players!

Ted

Ted,
Everytime I try to stay out of something, me being me things pop up and draw me back in. First and foremost I'm glad that you have had recent people getting involved with RDSS since the seminar and your work with the Sartin Methodology the continuing learning and development is a labour of love and I for one am heart warmed that I can call you a friend. But there is always a catch, and that is self serving people such as TY that did the seminar for whatever self serving reason gets my blood boiling. I have given people who I do not know more respect than what he presented you before, during and after, and I do know that he will not be giving any seminar's in the future because of his performance and the way he carried himself that day. The members of this site, though I only know a few are Grade 1 and I am most appriciative to be amongst quality people like them. Ted you are who you are,a decent person, me a rose of a different colour.

Woodbine Entertainment would be well served to ask Ted Craven to give a seminar for folks interested in learning about the present Sartin Methodology.

Trotman, You mentioned in another post that you used BLAM. Do you post on their forum? If so, what is your handle? Mine is the same as here.

Jim

Jim I totally agree with what you say and I have the connections to make it happen the way Ted would want it to happen.

Seminar
 

Why is the volume so low on the video?
If you were present - can you please give me a reply on how you thought the Seminar went?

I will be at Woodbine Tomorrow upstairs in the Turf Club - drop by and see me.

JD

Mr. Pagine I was not there but watched the video and had feedback from those who were there. I know for a fact that Woodbine Entertainment was totally embarrassed not by the turnout, but the whole seminar was self serving. TY has stood on his last soap box and personally goodbye. Please do not take my opinion on this as right or wrong it was only an opinion. In my
opinion he is the opposite of what we the members have here, a free forum to discuss and help one another. The weakest or better description the newest members of this site I would do whatever it takes to help them but TY is and will always be about "HIM" and thank god he is gone from here and other sites as well. In my words "A CANCER". I will make a point of popping up
to the Turf Club tomorrow, Thank You for the invite.

"Ted you are who you are,a decent person, me a rose of a different colour."

Well said, Trot. I couldn't express my opinion about TY as well as you did.
Lets talk about Ray Taulbot, lets do it for the less informed.

I have only been interested in handicapping for 3 years now, and only joined this site in November of 2010. I am not an expert, I don't post regularly nor have I attended any seminars or gathering. I am, hoever, one of those who at first empathized with the "Disappointed Evaluator".
I was impressed by Ted's response to my post and was determined to follow his advice and instructions.I read most of his posts, the recommended manuals and Follow Ups, viewed the videos and listened to many audios.
Not completely satisfied, however, I continued to search and study other methods of handicapping. Before coming to RDSS I had originally started working with some of the Bob Pitlak software and then focused for some time on the Randy Giles Pace Appraiser(an excellent approach to pace shapes). Later I studied Ken Massa's HTR, Michael Pizzolla and his magical Magic Handicapping book, video and software, Charles Carroll's methods, William L Scott, etc etc, etc ... probably just like every member on this site.
I am not trying to brown nose you Ted, and as you often say, there are many ways and methods, even with only Rdss to handicap, but in my opinion you offer the most comprehensible and accessible method to handicapping for the "average Joe".
As we all know the Sartin Methodology helped revolutionize the art of handicapping. Many of the people who helped Dr Sartin have either passed away, retired or adapted the teachings and implemented them in their own venues and methods. That's fine. I love the Pizzolla videos. I've learned a lot from them. Randy Giles' Extreme Pace Handicapping is wonderful.
However I've learned so much more about handicapping from your software and site - and it seems that I discover so much more daily by re-reading the forum, the manuals and of course by using the software over and over again. The contributors to the forum have valuable insights as well - Barb (you can tell about a person by how well they take care of their mother ), Ritchie, Froggy, PKTrucker, Partsnut, For The Lead, Silent Run, Bill V, Mike Sal...and even Tim.
Frankly I have read many of Tim's posts in the past and have even used some of his suggestions in my handicapping and I hope that he is successful in his teaching efforts, however... Frankly I am not happy about the way he interacts with you or the members of this site. He certainly appears to have a good grasp of the methodology, but perhaps might be lacking in a few areas.
We have a saying in India - "Everyone wants to be a Guru, but no one wants to be a disciple". From the beginning I have noted how you are very low key, seemingly mild mannered and to the point. You don't appear to put yourself, your ego or your software on a pedestal. You don't push your methods or your products but you quietly make them available to those who are open and listen. NO FANTASTIC SALES PITCH! NO SENSATIONALISM! NO FALSE ADVERTISING! And you keep the forum even keeled.
Oftentimes it is seen that a true disciple of any great teacher is not necessarily he who is physically closest or more renowned. William Blake succeeded Swedenborg, Fritz Peters followed Gurdjieff, and Lao Tzu was influenced by Confucious. I am not saying that handicapping horse races is on a "par" of a religious teaching (though it could be) but rather I am precisely stating that right now you are presenting the Sartin Methodology and making it easily accessible in it's purist form, like a true disciple. Once the disciple has imbibed the teacher's teaching, then he is free to go out and teach. You, my good man, are more than qualified to hold seminars.

Wilbur, well done a beautiful bit of expression. I have sat with Ted at his home and we have handicapped together and he is a very caring and generous man. I can always tell what he is thinking when sitting with him, though he may beg to differ, ha ha. Again well said.

Gentlemen, gentlemen - I do appreciate all the kind words, and it is a balm to my ego ;)

However, (you knew this was coming, right?) - this is the end of ANY FURTHER bashing of Dr Tim - OK? Please don't make me close this thread. Whatever divergent opinions people may hold of him, it was he who held the seminar, for better or for worse. Undoubtedly some people got something out of it, if only that they should perhaps Google 'Sartin software or video seminars' further ... he deserves credit for attempting to serve the handicapping public. And for that, I thank him - and told him so that day.

Finally, it is unfair and unsportsmanlike to criticize someone who cannot respond back. It would annoy me if the situation were reversed, say on Sartin Alumns.

So continue the discussion of seminars by all means, but please save the darkness for a Private Message or email (or just save it). Trotman, what am I going to do with you ...:eek: (We'll be talking tomorrow, I know. Sorry I cannot join you and Jon at Woodbine - another time, for sure.)

Ted

Tim/Ted
 

Yep, knew that was coming. Also, no slight intended to Dr Tim. He is brilliant. I agree with many of his opinions. I even wish that he could share more of his insiders knowledge of the track, time and timekeeping.

Wilbur track, time keeping this stuff can be arranged for the group here. You want the inside by Bruno Di Julio on clocking not out of his book but from him then it can happen. Like the movie Field of Dreams "If you Build it They Will Come", if you want it lets make it happen. Every idea is a wasted thought if you don't act upon it and good or bad you did it and made something happen despite the outcome, just as a horse race.

Just watched the Seminar
 

I thought it was okay - it is a tough topic to discuss.
As I am always learning this racing game, I look to all opinions, and ideas.
The one aspect that I need to learn ....is to keep records.

I just wish I had more time to handicap and wager - with work and family...the time is precious, and often I don't have much time to play.

Happy Punting,
JDL