Pace and Cap - Sartin Methodology & The Match Up - View Single Post

Ted Craven · 01-28-2013, 10:09 AM

Jon,

Thanks for these. However, without definitions they are pretty uninformative (some would say - distracting). Yes I know, they are the BH Method which are some kind of descendant of ideas of Ray Taulbot. And FWIW, I have been given (with thanks) and have read ALL the works of Ray Taulbot including many of the unpublished ones.

My view echos what I suspect was Doc Sartin's view, which he summarized in his oft quoted article written for American Turf Monthly (http://www.americanturf.com/pace/sartinarticle.cfm) - that the crux of Taulbot's approach was how the horse set or overcame the pace of the race it faced in a previous representative race or races (simplified explanation). Taulbot's collection of 'angles' seeking to measure current form, identify moves, etc were always subsidiary to measurements of how the horse faced (and will face today) the pace of the race. Pace is primary - angles are secondary. And value when wagering is always paramount.

I am not, and don't seek to be an expert on either Taulbot's or BM's angles (Taulbot on steroids?). Therefore, I will recommend interested parties to check out the first link given above and use that forum for questions and support. But it is a long and winding road, with little (no) community support, unproven as to consistent profitability in the long run, and one in which even the author no longer even participates. I mention this not to denigrate his efforts, only to dissuade people here from diverting too much effort into seeking 'yet another holy grail'.

There is no holy grail, other than the one which is in front of you (whatever successful methodology you follow) - focus more attention on that one (for example, the Sartin Methodology). When you've mastered much of that, and have a good handle on your own learning strengths and weaknesses, then you can investigate everything else to see if it will enhance your existing profitable approach. If you spread yourself too thin before having mastered a winning method - and having mastered the psychological and mental aspects required for persistently applying these analytical and betting tools - you will almost certainly fail at each new, and newer, and newest patch of greener grass on the other side of the hill.

I endorse many of the concepts, and some angles, developed by Taulbot and have incorporated some of them into RDSS Workout Patterns and 'moves' markups. WIR and A and B Angles mean little to us without a key. If we're going to talk about stuff like this, please let's talk about it from a 'conceptual' point of view - about how it works, why it works, when and at what profitability, what it reveals about how a race is run or how a trainer preps a horse or how the ebb and flow of a horse's form cycle is elaborated by the inter-race moves and performances of a horse. This is much more work than simply stating that angles 'B, WIR, MMA, QE2, E=MC2, etc' applied in a given race. Some angle ALWAYS applies in EVERY race!

Permit me to repeat what I have stated elsewhere recently: this community is about The Sartin Methodology - primarily, and about credible horse racing analysis and betting practice in general. I have nothing but respect for Ray Taulbot, and no ill-will whatsoever towards BM. But FOCUS, focus, focus is what I will champion - and enforce - here at Pace and Cap, as long as I am primary moderator.

cheers,

Ted

01-28-2013, 10:09 AM	#9
Ted Craven Grade 1 Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Nanaimo, British Columbia, Canada Posts: 8,854	Jon, Thanks for these. However, without definitions they are pretty uninformative (some would say - distracting). Yes I know, they are the BH Method which are some kind of descendant of ideas of Ray Taulbot. And FWIW, I have been given (with thanks) and have read ALL the works of Ray Taulbot including many of the unpublished ones. My view echos what I suspect was Doc Sartin's view, which he summarized in his oft quoted article written for American Turf Monthly (http://www.americanturf.com/pace/sartinarticle.cfm) - that the crux of Taulbot's approach was how the horse set or overcame the pace of the race it faced in a previous representative race or races (simplified explanation). Taulbot's collection of 'angles' seeking to measure current form, identify moves, etc were always subsidiary to measurements of how the horse faced (and will face today) the pace of the race. Pace is primary - angles are secondary. And value when wagering is always paramount. I am not, and don't seek to be an expert on either Taulbot's or BM's angles (Taulbot on steroids?). Therefore, I will recommend interested parties to check out the first link given above and use that forum for questions and support. But it is a long and winding road, with little (no) community support, unproven as to consistent profitability in the long run, and one in which even the author no longer even participates. I mention this not to denigrate his efforts, only to dissuade people here from diverting too much effort into seeking 'yet another holy grail'. There is no holy grail, other than the one which is in front of you (whatever successful methodology you follow) - focus more attention on that one (for example, the Sartin Methodology). When you've mastered much of that, and have a good handle on your own learning strengths and weaknesses, then you can investigate everything else to see if it will enhance your existing profitable approach. If you spread yourself too thin before having mastered a winning method - and having mastered the psychological and mental aspects required for persistently applying these analytical and betting tools - you will almost certainly fail at each new, and newer, and newest patch of greener grass on the other side of the hill. I endorse many of the concepts, and some angles, developed by Taulbot and have incorporated some of them into RDSS Workout Patterns and 'moves' markups. WIR and A and B Angles mean little to us without a key. If we're going to talk about stuff like this, please let's talk about it from a 'conceptual' point of view - about how it works, why it works, when and at what profitability, what it reveals about how a race is run or how a trainer preps a horse or how the ebb and flow of a horse's form cycle is elaborated by the inter-race moves and performances of a horse. This is much more work than simply stating that angles 'B, WIR, MMA, QE2, E=MC2, etc' applied in a given race. Some angle ALWAYS applies in EVERY race! Permit me to repeat what I have stated elsewhere recently: this community is about The Sartin Methodology - primarily, and about credible horse racing analysis and betting practice in general. I have nothing but respect for Ray Taulbot, and no ill-will whatsoever towards BM. But FOCUS, focus, focus is what I will champion - and enforce - here at Pace and Cap, as long as I am primary moderator. cheers, Ted __________________ RDSS - Racing Decision Support System™ Last edited by Ted Craven; 01-28-2013 at 10:18 AM.