The use of RDSS and the results - Page 3 - Pace and Cap

Jeebs · 08-15-2014, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill V.

https://www.derbywars.com/tournaments

Hi Jeebs

That is nice Good for you, what was the entry fee for the Del mar contest ?
Thanks
Bill

$29 buy-in, 30 people.

I've done well in the big Saturday games there too. Won $4k in the Wood Day game and then $1200 in the Lexington Stakes Day Game back in April. All RDSS.

Jeebs · 08-15-2014, 10:29 PM

If you are trying to narrow down to 1 horse for contest play, you are probably missing the boat. I generally get between 2 or 3 contenders based on my modeling and play the odds. You won't always hit, but it will put you in the ballpark.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan.p.coli

Jeebs,

Respect. Congrats on the derby wars win. I myself have trouble narrowing down to 1 horse using RDSS out of the box.

Ted once told me that the Sartin Methodology has 2 parts: the tools and the matchup. Since I've been becoming more proficient with the Matchup on the forums here, my win % has gone up.

If you have any tips as to how you're narrowing down to 1 horse using RDSS readouts alone, please share.

Bill V. · 08-15-2014, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeebs

$29 buy-in, 30 people.

I've done well in the big Saturday games there too. Won $4k in the Wood Day game and then $1200 in the Lexington Stakes Day Game back in April. All RDSS.

Congrats again. Contest seem like a whole new world to me.
I can not see myself ever going into one again. However I respect your skills and the desire of the contest players. Winning big money = all good
Winning and doing things at your own pace and making your own way = for me anyway = good

Good Skill
Bill

CEW · 08-18-2014, 10:37 PM

Latekick (and others posting here).....

I've been reading the posts after your question on whether anyone has played or won any tournaments with the program.

I don't use RDSS, but I've been a Sartin player for a long time (I use an old velocity program). I only play in 2 tournaments a year, both at Laurel. The format is real money, $20 minimum bet amount, no limit on the number of bets, starts with $200, and is WPS only. The top 3 finishers keep their bank and get a trip and entry into the World Series at the Orleans.

It took me about 10 or 12 tries to win, which I finally did in 2012. In boiling it all down, there's only one reason I'm competitive in that tournament and that's because I'm using the Sartin Methodology to its fullest, including betting on 2 horses every chance I can. I've discussed strategy with a lot of guys there, especially if I bust out but then stick around to see what happens. I cannot believe how few guys know how to bet 2 or more horses to win.

This is also the same reason I am not competitive in $2 win/place tournaments, like the World Series. After all these years of betting on more than one horse, I hate relying on one horse. I'll admit I'm not good at that. Another reason I don't like the $2 win/place tournaments is that they are so unrealistic. Who goes to the track and plays like that? However, I do realize that if I want to get competitive on the national level, I need to accept the rules and start changing my outlook. Some of those guys at the finals are amazing. One guy I know, who is near the top quite often, knocked down 6 winners out of ten on the final day and zoomed to the top 5.

But closer to home here, my advice to you is make a decision to dedicate yourself to whatever program you use and stay at it. I think playing in a few tournaments will give you a good sense of what you need to work on. To get in the Laurel tournament, you only need $100 (plus bankroll, which is yours).

On your second question: As far as finding out who makes money with the program and who doesn't, you won't get that kind of information here. Its like discussing the stock market, which is my 2nd favorite game. Even with the guys I discuss the market with every day or every week, only one of them actually knows the size of my portfolio. With all the other guys, we discuss good and bad stocks and gains (just like races and payoffs), but not annual gains.

So that's my take on tournaments - best of luck !

Chuck

Latekick · 08-19-2014, 08:33 PM

Hi CEW, really appreciate the response you gave here. I also don't use the RDSS program but i am a firm believer in the sartin methodology and i try my hardest to transform my brisnet PPS into everything that i feel is important that i have learned through all the reading i have done in the manuals and throughout the site.
Im interested in what your style is CEW, now forgive me if im asking too much here i just am always curious too see how other people make the words that Doc Sartin said, put into action on a day to day handicapping basis. ME personally, im still trying to figure out the best way to handicap using the principles of the sartin method without using rdss and just using my knowledge of pace-lines which i find most important and then going from there and just calculating the fractions and so on and so forth. I recently made it an effort to do all the FPS numbers on my own through my own hand calculator and paper and pencil and then try to use the Brohamer model to track whats winning, but that just seemed to takes HOURS of calculating and i have a pretty busy schedule, so i never got a real feel of if i was going to profit from this or not.
Anyway, im curious and if you don't mind me asking, how do you put the sartin method to use without the using of rdss?

And your right in every aspect of that answer. Maybe i was just ignorant in asking people there winnings...... I guess i just was a bit overwhelmed with my day at the track that day and we all know that feeling of thinking you have it all right and it all goes wrong. Anyway though, im really beggining to get interested in learning the ways of a handicapping tournament so thank you for your input and God Bless.

CEW · 08-19-2014, 11:24 PM

Latekick.....

I take it you want to make your own numbers rather than subscribing to RDSS or another download program. So it might be the expense of it or also it might be that you just want to flat out create your own figures. The latter is what I do.

I had all the Sartin programs though Thoromation and a few after that as well. When it seemed that the end was near for software support from Howard Sartin, I looked into some download programs like Synergism 6 and a few others. There were some things a didn't like about those available download programs, so I set out to create my own so that I would not have to rely on any service or program that would need support. The other reason I wanted my own program was to get into tournament play - where I needed to speed up the process...handicapping multiple cards the night before, etc. This was an important step for me in terms of getting more competitive in tournaments.

So I hired my own programmer and we did my own download program using DRF Formulator. This was more work than you can imagine, but I've had it working for years now. And every year or two, we do some updates and smooth out certain features. It is basically velocity from the old Phase III with some adjustments. It runs about like Synergism II for the sprints and like the old meridian adjustment for the routes, if you know that term.

I used to do all the calculations with a calculator, so I know what you are saying about all the work. You could consider Phase I (or TPR, which stands for Total Pace Ratings) which is detailed in "Pace Makes the Race" (Dick Schmidt and Tom Hambleton's book). These numbers can be hand made in minutes and are almost as effective as velocity. Schmidt would tell you they are better for a number of reasons. (I was in a week long class with him in Vegas one time, and he tore the place up with these numbers).

You asked about how I put things to use. Its Phase III from the old Yellow Manual. I'm a 'throwback' ! The readouts include FW, EP, SP, TT, Hidden, plus the 3 fractions. These are what you are probably cranking out on a calculator.

One way to speed things up for you is to write a spreadsheet. You still have to manually input the pacelines, but it recalculates every time you hit the enter button. I have spreadsheets that I've written which I use to fine tune my adjustments. If you haven't used spreadsheets, its not so difficult. I use them with the same confidence as my program, say if I can't get a card downloaded. Something for you to consider.

If you're not familiar with the Phase 1 total pace ratings, take a listen to the Las Vegas seminar tapes in the Audio Collection on the site here. Somewhere near the bottom of the first day, Schmidt and Hambleton give an hour or two clinic on the numbers and their application.

Stay in touch and let us know what direction you're headed in.

Regards,

Chuck

Ryan.p.coli · 08-20-2014, 11:27 AM

RDSS gives you the velocity, TPR #'s, all the corollaries. Also- the downloads of RDSS are the same price as the cost of Brisnet PP's (I download the Brisnet Ultimate PP's for my father when I go to the track with him and I generally handicap on my computer). He's more of a class handicapper than a pace handicapper- so I understand him wanting to stick with what he's used to.

You don't have to use the BLBL screen to handicap with RDSS. From what I understand, the different RDSS screens are just upgraded versions of classic Sartin Programs. As a newer Sartinite, I couldn't remotely imagine trading in my RDSS program for any of the classic programs. It also assists with the matchup analysis... which is where I have spent most of my recent learning efforts.

Calculating velocity figures by hand seems like an awful lot of work. In Modern Pace Handicapping, I like how Brohamer encourages you to do it by hand at first (for learning purposes), but I could automate that process in excel in 15 minutes.

Lastly, the Matchup is one of the most powerful tools of the methodology. It would do you some good to spend some time reading RichieP's posts on this forum.

Latekick · 08-20-2014, 10:57 PM

Do you know which of the vegastapesdescribe how Hamilton and Schmidt made their figures and applied the? I do manual calculations and anything to speed up the process would be great

MikeB · 08-20-2014, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Latekick

Do you know which of the vegas tapes describe how Hamilton and Schmidt made their figures and applied the?

The Hamilton and Schmidt method is described in their book, available at Amazon. It is a paper and pencil method, and it is not a pace figure or a measure of velocity or energy as those terms would be used here or in Brohamer's work.

sureshotlink · 08-20-2014, 11:34 PM

The formulae for creating your own TPR are contained in " Pace makes the race"

Curious? but why would you want to take on such a tedious task when all the figs are right there for you in RDSS2 or any other sartin program. Top priority should be learning how to properly construct your investments and learning when to pass races when the obviously favorites are bound to win. Just these two things only will improve your R.O.I.

Footnote* I use nothing else but RDSS2 in live bankroll tournaments

Continued Success!

Paul link

08-18-2014, 10:37 PM	#24
CEW Grade 1 Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 120	Contests Latekick (and others posting here)..... I've been reading the posts after your question on whether anyone has played or won any tournaments with the program. I don't use RDSS, but I've been a Sartin player for a long time (I use an old velocity program). I only play in 2 tournaments a year, both at Laurel. The format is real money, $20 minimum bet amount, no limit on the number of bets, starts with $200, and is WPS only. The top 3 finishers keep their bank and get a trip and entry into the World Series at the Orleans. It took me about 10 or 12 tries to win, which I finally did in 2012. In boiling it all down, there's only one reason I'm competitive in that tournament and that's because I'm using the Sartin Methodology to its fullest, including betting on 2 horses every chance I can. I've discussed strategy with a lot of guys there, especially if I bust out but then stick around to see what happens. I cannot believe how few guys know how to bet 2 or more horses to win. This is also the same reason I am not competitive in $2 win/place tournaments, like the World Series. After all these years of betting on more than one horse, I hate relying on one horse. I'll admit I'm not good at that. Another reason I don't like the $2 win/place tournaments is that they are so unrealistic. Who goes to the track and plays like that? However, I do realize that if I want to get competitive on the national level, I need to accept the rules and start changing my outlook. Some of those guys at the finals are amazing. One guy I know, who is near the top quite often, knocked down 6 winners out of ten on the final day and zoomed to the top 5. But closer to home here, my advice to you is make a decision to dedicate yourself to whatever program you use and stay at it. I think playing in a few tournaments will give you a good sense of what you need to work on. To get in the Laurel tournament, you only need $100 (plus bankroll, which is yours). On your second question: As far as finding out who makes money with the program and who doesn't, you won't get that kind of information here. Its like discussing the stock market, which is my 2nd favorite game. Even with the guys I discuss the market with every day or every week, only one of them actually knows the size of my portfolio. With all the other guys, we discuss good and bad stocks and gains (just like races and payoffs), but not annual gains. So that's my take on tournaments - best of luck ! Chuck

08-20-2014, 11:27 AM	#27
Ryan.p.coli Grade 1 Join Date: May 2014 Location: Chicago Posts: 121	RDSS gives you the velocity, TPR #'s, all the corollaries. Also- the downloads of RDSS are the same price as the cost of Brisnet PP's (I download the Brisnet Ultimate PP's for my father when I go to the track with him and I generally handicap on my computer). He's more of a class handicapper than a pace handicapper- so I understand him wanting to stick with what he's used to. You don't have to use the BLBL screen to handicap with RDSS. From what I understand, the different RDSS screens are just upgraded versions of classic Sartin Programs. As a newer Sartinite, I couldn't remotely imagine trading in my RDSS program for any of the classic programs. It also assists with the matchup analysis... which is where I have spent most of my recent learning efforts. Calculating velocity figures by hand seems like an awful lot of work. In Modern Pace Handicapping, I like how Brohamer encourages you to do it by hand at first (for learning purposes), but I could automate that process in excel in 15 minutes. Lastly, the Matchup is one of the most powerful tools of the methodology. It would do you some good to spend some time reading RichieP's posts on this forum. __________________ Follow the Sartin Methodology on Twitter: https://twitter.com/SartinMethod Last edited by Ryan.p.coli; 08-20-2014 at 11:36 AM.

08-20-2014, 11:34 PM	#30
sureshotlink Grade 1 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: the great race place Posts: 205	Why The formulae for creating your own TPR are contained in " Pace makes the race" Curious? but why would you want to take on such a tedious task when all the figs are right there for you in RDSS2 or any other sartin program. Top priority should be learning how to properly construct your investments and learning when to pass races when the obviously favorites are bound to win. Just these two things only will improve your R.O.I. Footnote* I use nothing else but RDSS2 in live bankroll tournaments Continued Success! Paul link

08-19-2014, 08:33 PM	#25
Latekick Grade 1 Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 389	Hi CEW, really appreciate the response you gave here. I also don't use the RDSS program but i am a firm believer in the sartin methodology and i try my hardest to transform my brisnet PPS into everything that i feel is important that i have learned through all the reading i have done in the manuals and throughout the site. Im interested in what your style is CEW, now forgive me if im asking too much here i just am always curious too see how other people make the words that Doc Sartin said, put into action on a day to day handicapping basis. ME personally, im still trying to figure out the best way to handicap using the principles of the sartin method without using rdss and just using my knowledge of pace-lines which i find most important and then going from there and just calculating the fractions and so on and so forth. I recently made it an effort to do all the FPS numbers on my own through my own hand calculator and paper and pencil and then try to use the Brohamer model to track whats winning, but that just seemed to takes HOURS of calculating and i have a pretty busy schedule, so i never got a real feel of if i was going to profit from this or not. Anyway, im curious and if you don't mind me asking, how do you put the sartin method to use without the using of rdss? And your right in every aspect of that answer. Maybe i was just ignorant in asking people there winnings...... I guess i just was a bit overwhelmed with my day at the track that day and we all know that feeling of thinking you have it all right and it all goes wrong. Anyway though, im really beggining to get interested in learning the ways of a handicapping tournament so thank you for your input and God Bless.

08-19-2014, 11:24 PM	#26
CEW Grade 1 Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 120	Latekick..... I take it you want to make your own numbers rather than subscribing to RDSS or another download program. So it might be the expense of it or also it might be that you just want to flat out create your own figures. The latter is what I do. I had all the Sartin programs though Thoromation and a few after that as well. When it seemed that the end was near for software support from Howard Sartin, I looked into some download programs like Synergism 6 and a few others. There were some things a didn't like about those available download programs, so I set out to create my own so that I would not have to rely on any service or program that would need support. The other reason I wanted my own program was to get into tournament play - where I needed to speed up the process...handicapping multiple cards the night before, etc. This was an important step for me in terms of getting more competitive in tournaments. So I hired my own programmer and we did my own download program using DRF Formulator. This was more work than you can imagine, but I've had it working for years now. And every year or two, we do some updates and smooth out certain features. It is basically velocity from the old Phase III with some adjustments. It runs about like Synergism II for the sprints and like the old meridian adjustment for the routes, if you know that term. I used to do all the calculations with a calculator, so I know what you are saying about all the work. You could consider Phase I (or TPR, which stands for Total Pace Ratings) which is detailed in "Pace Makes the Race" (Dick Schmidt and Tom Hambleton's book). These numbers can be hand made in minutes and are almost as effective as velocity. Schmidt would tell you they are better for a number of reasons. (I was in a week long class with him in Vegas one time, and he tore the place up with these numbers). You asked about how I put things to use. Its Phase III from the old Yellow Manual. I'm a 'throwback' ! The readouts include FW, EP, SP, TT, Hidden, plus the 3 fractions. These are what you are probably cranking out on a calculator. One way to speed things up for you is to write a spreadsheet. You still have to manually input the pacelines, but it recalculates every time you hit the enter button. I have spreadsheets that I've written which I use to fine tune my adjustments. If you haven't used spreadsheets, its not so difficult. I use them with the same confidence as my program, say if I can't get a card downloaded. Something for you to consider. If you're not familiar with the Phase 1 total pace ratings, take a listen to the Las Vegas seminar tapes in the Audio Collection on the site here. Somewhere near the bottom of the first day, Schmidt and Hambleton give an hour or two clinic on the numbers and their application. Stay in touch and let us know what direction you're headed in. Regards, Chuck

08-20-2014, 10:57 PM	#28
Latekick Grade 1 Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 389	Do you know which of the vegastapesdescribe how Hamilton and Schmidt made their figures and applied the? I do manual calculations and anything to speed up the process would be great