Go Back   Pace and Cap - Sartin Methodology & The Match Up > Classic Sartin Programs - Support, Discussion
Mark Forums Read
Google Site Search Get RDSS Sartin Library RDSS FAQs Conduct Register Site FAQ Members List Search Today's Posts

Classic Sartin Programs - Support, Discussion Phase III/MPH, Synergism, Energy, Kgen, Entropy, Thoromation, Quad-Rater, PaceLauncher, Synthesis, Validator, Val4, Speculator, etc ...

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-03-2020, 11:53 PM   #1
James T.
AlwNW1X
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Moreno Valley, CA
Posts: 12
Median Variant

Once you make a Median Variant, how is it applied? Is it added to each of the internal fractions, or is it only added to the final fraction? I think you have to add it to all the fractions, or else it will skew the other computations of EP, SP, and FW, etc.
James T. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2020, 09:17 AM   #2
Mitch44
Grade 1
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: The Villages, Fl.
Posts: 3,705
Its normally added to the 2nd and 3rd FR.The 1st Fr has little influence as all horses run it very fast and it pretty much is not influenced by the variant within class structures. There may be a 1 second difference between the very best or Gr 1 horse and the worst, however with in classes or within a few up or down classes its negligible.

When using compounded FR.'s such as EP and you already adjusted the FR's than its already in there .

If the Fr's have not been adjusted and you want to adjust it to a compounded FR. I would look at the percentage of the race your adjusting. I.e. a 6F race the EP portion would be 66.6666 % and the 3r FR would be 33.3333 %. (4furlongs / 6 =66.6666) (2F/6=33.3333) This example would be for a TPR rating. For other compounded rating it depends what the Fr's are within the compounded ratings. FW and SP are heavily dependent on EP and one may be over adjusting there. This is good for TPR, Ep and 3rd Fr.

I believe the most accurate way is to add the variant to the 2nd and 3rd FR than when those FPS are used for compounded FR's its already within the FR's being used.
I.e. HE Simply add the FR's (2nd & 3rd)/ by 2 than convert the average FPS to a time, rating or use the FPS as is. Or one could add it according to the % of each Fr. being measured,note 3rd FR;s vary greatly by each distance.

Whatever approach is used it must be used consistently. All this is best handled by a computer for accuracy, consistency , and error free. Especially for compounded FR.s because the 3rd FR varies throughout distance structures.

BTY I thought at the time that the Meridian Variant was brilliant but Sartin evolved from it to a more refined variant. James if your using RDSS don't worry about all this as its all taken care of within the program.

Perhaps Ted could expound more on this subject and as to how its handled within the RDSS program.


Mitch44

Last edited by Mitch44; 01-04-2020 at 09:30 AM.
Mitch44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2020, 10:18 AM   #3
Ted Craven
Grade 1
 
Ted Craven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Nanaimo, British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 8,853
James and Mitch, I was just getting ready to respond! Could someone remind me exactly what a 'Median' variant is, or a 'Meridian' variant if that is not the same thing. Perhaps a reference to a Follow Up issue? I recall the term, but the precise concept has dimmed in my mind ...

Then I can comment comparatively on the 'Gap Par' variant used in later Sartin software including RDSS.

Ted
__________________

R
DSS -
Racing Decision Support System™
Ted Craven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2020, 11:23 AM   #4
Mitch44
Grade 1
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: The Villages, Fl.
Posts: 3,705
Hello Ted, I took it to mean a Meridian variant. Being new here I thought he was referring to the old Yellow Manual.


Only James can answer that?


Mitch44
Mitch44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2020, 06:04 PM   #5
tom
Grade 1
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 644
If he means Meridian, there is an article in FU #1, Beginner's Column.

Looking at the horse Scapegoat, the full adjustment of +.26 is added to each fraction and EP.

If you use just the fractions and EP, you will get ~ the same numbers as if you used unadjusted fractions and EP and then adjust the compound ratings by +.26.

But don 't adjust both, it appears.
tom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2020, 04:06 AM   #6
James T.
AlwNW1X
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Moreno Valley, CA
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch44 View Post
Hello Ted, I took it to mean a Meridian variant. Being new here I thought he was referring to the old Yellow Manual.


Only James can answer that?


Mitch44
Yes, it is the variant that is at the beginning of the yellow manual and repeated at the beginning of Follow Up #1 that I was referring to. From my readings, the Median and Meridian Variants are two names for the same thing. There is a raw variant produced by a Par-generator or Variant program and then it gets a race-class and a track class adjustment made to it before it is put into an open adjustment on the main computer program. I know all this stuff might be obsolete now that there is an RDSS program but I'm trying to learn all the basics and what the computer's actually doing... to REALLY understand the handicapping procedure and theory.
James T. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2020, 04:34 AM   #7
James T.
AlwNW1X
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Moreno Valley, CA
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom View Post
If he means Meridian, there is an article in FU #1, Beginner's Column.

Looking at the horse Scapegoat, the full adjustment of +.26 is added to each fraction and EP.

If you use just the fractions and EP, you will get ~ the same numbers as if you used unadjusted fractions and EP and then adjust the compound ratings by +.26.

But don 't adjust both, it appears.
For what it's worth I read an older edition of Ainslie Complete Guide to Thoroughbred Racing... on page 260 he says that a pace handicapper should add the entire variant to the final time but add proportional shares of it to the fractional times. So I suppose he's agreeing with what you're saying... to add it to all the fractions. This statement isn't in the later editions of his book. In fact, they removed a lot of his comments on pace in the later editions.
James T. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2020, 11:01 PM   #8
tom
Grade 1
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 644
I couldn't find it right away, but wasn't there a method where you equalized total energy (F1+F2+F3) and then apportioned the new total by the percentages of each fraction, ala Energy@?
tom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2020, 12:06 PM   #9
thelyingthief
Grade 2
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 88
the meridian variant is : (pace call fps x 2 + late pace fps) / 3 : using ONLY pace of race, no beaten lengths.

median, i think, refers to an energy figure (%). The meridian is different.

as to its use, FU #1 states, taking ANY of the meridian figures in the race, determine each horse's difference from that figure. factor in class level and track level class adjustments, and this is your variant, per horse. the variant is applied 60/40 as I recall, but don't quote me -- you'll find that somewhere in the literature.

so, various energy figures would use that adjusted number, your compounded ratings would, etc. brohammer used to keep these meridian figures to apply them himself. in the older programs (which is the topic, right?), you'd simply input the variant itself in the 'open' adjustment, and the program would make the necessary dispensations.

Last edited by thelyingthief; 01-07-2020 at 12:18 PM.
thelyingthief is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2020, 12:49 PM   #10
Mitch44
Grade 1
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: The Villages, Fl.
Posts: 3,705
All this is really a mute point because the Meridian variant was replaced by a much better variant that Sartin developed. I stated this in my original post.

The variant adjustment in the present day RDSS includes Sartin's best that he ever developed and to this day works exceptionally.

The variants used in the Energy program or Thoromation can't compare to the adjustments within todays RDSS.

If you have not been around for 15 or 20 years with Sartin I would caution against reading old outdated material because you won't know what's still valid or what has been superseded.Stick to Ted's recommendations and read the later Follow Up's I.e.75 and later.Otherwise your risk for failure is greatly increased. Old heads like Bill V, Ted, Lt1, Rmath and Richie P. plus myself can sort through all that unnecessary noise. Most of us 30 tears with these concepts.

I do admire newbies that want to absorb all this but it can be a misdirection that may cause your failure and departure. Ditto for old programs. All that effort can be better placed on the latest and best of Sartin in today's RDSS and even that will be challenging as its not a simplistic endeavor.


Mitch44
Mitch44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Track variant cosmicway General Discussion 1 04-26-2014 10:54 AM
bris race shapes vs track variant lightspeed2011 Previous 'Handicapping Discussion' Forum 7 05-30-2013 09:27 PM
DRF Variant Repden94 Previous 'Handicapping Discussion' Forum 3 11-13-2010 11:12 AM
Saratoga 2010 - Workbook for the Seminar Ted Craven 2010 9 08-28-2010 04:13 PM


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:02 PM.