Do we help you ?

[DaveEdwards]

I was actually amazed to find such a friendly & supportive site. I actually found it quite by accident. I was looking for items on the internet regarding the psychology of sports for betting purposes.

I really do view this site as out on it's own. Admittedly I haven't looked at most sites anyway, but the free information and support available here is really unbelievable.

All Follow Ups & many manuals and a vast array of seminars, both video & sound only. I wonder what the actual market value of this free information is?

Also there is the Teaching & Match Up threads. All contributions made by people that are trying to help others.

RDSS. I have to say that I would take exception to anyone critical of Ted in the way carries out his business. I actually joined the site a long while before I became active so to speak. At no point during my whole time as a member did Ted ever try to sell me RDSS. It was my choice. Further to this I have had some Skype sessions with Ted. Whenever I've asked for help or clarification Ted has always delivered. I'm not sure what more anyone could ask of the man. The fact of the matter is that all of the materials and forum support on Pace & Cap are available to all, whether you are a RDSS subscriber or not.

As for Shoeless, I have to say that I thought he always came across as a good man. I don't read all postings made & so don't know the full details. We can all have our off moments, I'm sure we'd all admit.

Maybe there is something missing currently that none of us are perhaps qualified to discuss. I say maybe here, obviously I don't know everyone's knowledge base.
I'm referring now to the Psychology of Winning aspect of the Methodology. This could be an area where some people need support. I'm pretty much of the belief that if all of the information to make you a winner at the mutuels is available and you still aren't then it must be due to an issue with the person.

Of course my raising this isn't being critical of Pace & Cap. Filling the gap left by Howard in this regard is a mighty big job. Actually, it has just occurred to me, maybe former Pirco client and psychologist Dr Robert Anthony could help? I wonder if he visits this site.

So to summarise, I love this place. It's so genuinely helpful.

[DaveEdwards]

I felt I wanted to add a bit more on a couple of what appear to be contentious issues for some.

Betting Two Horses Per Race:
Until discovering the Sartin Methodology it would never have occurred to me to do this. I don't think you can really overemphasise the positive psychological benefits of betting this way. How often have two horse bettors seen their number one choice get blocked off & have the second choice swoop past the field? It makes the difference between me feeling like I want to kick my kids cat (only joking!) and finishing the race with more money than I started with. Seriously, it helps my equanimity a lot. It may not be an approach for everyone, but I like it.

Teaching Examples:
The purpose of the teaching examples as far as I understand it is to demonstrate issues of interest that may then be used by the reader if they see fit at some point in the future.
If a pattern has proved to work once, then it may well work again. This is exactly in line with the teaching approach used in the Follow Up. Were people complaining to PIRCO about redboarding? Of course they weren't. Doing it here is, in my opinion, the height of bad manners. When people freely give their time and knowledge they at least deserve a little respect in return, even of others don't agree. Everyone can be their own censor in this matter. If the teaching examples don't work for any individual they are perfectly entitled not to read them.

Just reading this back it looks a little sharper than I'd intended it to be, which isn't really my style I hope everyone reading this will appreciate. Just wanted to state my thoughts.

Anyway, Race 3 at FL beckons.....

[DaveEdwards]

R4, I passed 3!

[Rverge]

bill v what one has failed to mention is the PA jan1-to derby tourney. was won by a team that uses RDSS Squathads RDSS

[clore1030]

Originally Posted by Rverge

bill v what one has failed to mention is the PA jan1-to derby tourney. was won by a team that uses RDSS Squathads RDSS

The PA administrator noted this in his most recent post, and in a couple of previous ones in the thread, pretty much told the OP that there is no point in repeating himself.

It's rather sad as that time spent being negative could be better spent and maybe he'll come to realize that.

[Bill V.]

I just want to help others. I am very happy for Ted. Doc Sartin. supported
Pace and Cap. Jim Bradshaw was a big contributor to our Match Up area.
Doc Sartin asked for testers of RDSS to send him their reports.
Then Doc was shown RDSS for himself and then supported it as his program
for the modern Sartin Methodology.

Ted has a fantastic program. I am very aware and proud of the success
others are having using it. Its no shock to me that with the right attitude
and a program supported by Doc that people are doing so well.

Bill

[gandalf380]

I think the proper question is do you allow yourself to be helped. If you maintain an open mind, than the ideas and concepts tossed about here can be very helpful. I have never been turned down when I have asked for help and I try to help others whenever possible. I personally find the leaders of this board (Bill and Ted) absolutely pleasant and respectful at all times. I try to post whenever I can and discuss races when I have the time. However, during the Saratoga meeting I handicap for the Saratoga Special. My picks are in that paper and can be accessed on line at http://www.thisishorseracing.com. Click on the paper icon in the upper left corner.
If anyone has any questions regarding my selections, pace lines, etc. feel free to ask.
If you are at Saratoga Race Course, I sit in Sec O, row a. Drop by anytime, Friday thru Monday.

[Ted Craven]

Here is what I wrote on this topic at PaceAdvantage (brace yourselves )
.

I apologize that this post is rather long, but I have been saving it up and I don't really want to post further on this matter. If anyone wants more details on anything, I am always responsive to Private messages, emails or phone calls.

Shoelessjoe and Partsnut have the singular distinction of being the only 2 people to be kicked off Pace and Cap website - twice. The first time was a few years ago following a bout of disruptive behaviour and abusive language to other members. If I recall correctly, that was followed by various outraged pronouncements here by one or both of them. After a period of time, in turn, both wrote to me expressing regret for that previous behavior, explaining that some personal difficulties contributed to past intemperate behaviour and would I consider reinstating them. Yes I would, and did, after their promises to observe the long standing Terms of Service at Pace and Cap (P&C): no name calling, no negative energy, no disrupting the main mission of teaching the Sartin Methodology. Recently, the whole previous cycle repeated again, resulting again in the termination (for the last time) of their membership.

I don't take terminating people's membership at P&C lightly, however I DO take very seriously the mission of teaching the Sartin Methodology to those who wish to learn it, as does Bill V (Binder, here) who founded the site. Thus, anyone who - after repeated warnings - still believes they can say whatever they think without regard to how it may inflame community discussion, or how they may insult or intimidate other members, or how off-putting to newcomers seeking information and education rather than a Peyton Place of bickering and negativity: those people will be shown the door because they disrespect the mission of our website and ultimately the mission and legacy of Howard Sartin and Jim Bradshaw.

It is untrue that no dissent is permitted at P&C. You may disagree with me, with any other teacher or member, with the teachings of Sartin, Bradshaw or any of the other 'luminaries' of the Sartin Methodology, or with Dave Schwartz and NewPace for that matter, as much as you like - new learning comes from dispute with previous knowledge. However, there is a way to say, for example 'I hear your point and I respectfully disagree, or find that particular point no longer applicable, or this alternate has worked better for me - let me show you why, etc ...'. Occasionally, and naturally, we hear less temperate language in disagreements and while the disagreements can stand, the intemperate language is usually edited or posts removed. Shoeless took exception to some of these redacted posts, with repeated (and familiar) calls to 'let him speak' 'why the censorship', contributing nothing to the discussion, inciting further dispute, spam, spam, spam, eggs and spam ...

He and everyone has been repeatedly advised over the years that moderation of posts at P&C works a bit differently than at some other horse racing forums where you can (sometimes) belch out whatever you feel, heedless of the after-effect. P&C is not a forum where any old 'freedom of speech' is guaranteed if it is not benign or does not serve the purpose of educating horse players and those particularly interested in what we teach.

It is untrue that RDSS users are subject to a different set of rules or treatment at P&C than members who do not use RDSS. Show me the proof for that. Many members who do not use RDSS post about races under discussion, or about concepts of the Matchup (which Bradshaw and RichieP taught largely without reference to RDSS), or about older Sartin programs. There IS dispute from time to time, and tension. But people are free to speak like that - if they speak with a measure of civility and respect for whom they are addressing and for those reading. That said, a significant majority of the posting members at P&C do use RDSS. On the other hand, a significant majority of the hundreds of current users of RDSS do not post at P&C (though many are regular readers and private correspondents with me). Horse players who use RDSS bet collectively millions of dollars per year, some at a very professional level. And some are weekend warriors and little old ladies and gentlemen pursuing a retirement passion, keeping the brain cells active. What possible reason could all these people have for continually using RDSS year after year after year if they were not having success with it!?

I believe that the vast majority of PaceAdvatage members are fully competent to form their own opinions about whether P&C would be a suitable additional community for them if they happened to be interested in the Sartin Methodology, the Matchup, RDSS or any other older Sartin program. This entire thread was started by Shoeless not as a 'generic' musing about whether 'horse racing forums are helpful', but as we have seen from his repeated droning, merely the creation of a soapbox upon which to bash me, RDSS, the Sartin Methodology and P&C in particular because he is sore and bitter about being banned there and he knows there will be no 'third coming'. Shoeless has threatened me personally with physical violence, taunting me to 'meet and settle things man to man'. I presume this does not mean a 'spelling bee'. I appreciate that he is likely under significant personal stress these days, and that stress can cause us to not act as our best selves. In all my public and private correspondence with him, I have tried to be respectful and also encouraged him to seek help with whatever troubles him. Stress will kill a person, and anger and bitterness begets more of the same. I also advise him to stop betting on horses.

The Sartin Methodology is not a failed approach to handicapping as Shoeless and Partsnut claim. It is they who have failed to do the work to absorb the method, then adapt it and make it work for them. No one else is responsible for their success, or failure. I suppose Contest success is no proof of anything at all, however this year, as pointed out above, the Squatheads RDSS Team won the PAIHL Team contest and 'Hoofed in the Chest' captained Team Sartin to first place in the PAIHL regular season finals. 2 other RDSS related Teams entered the PAIHL Quarter Finals and 2 RDSS teams participated in the Final round. In another PACS Contest, the Sartin/Bradshaw Memorial, the top 2 prizes and 90% of the $1000 prize money (put up by me) were taken by RDSS players (dogkatcher and tomack59). Again, perhaps coincidence significant of nothing, but someone please explain to me when these 'coincidences' starts meaning something.

PaveAdvantage has recognized these Contest winners, and here they are:





As for how I came to possess the 'code to RDSS' - well, I wrote every line myself (sometimes 5 or 10 times, LOL). RDSS is based on both Validator, Howard Sartin's last program, and Speculator written by Guy Wadsworth, which in turn was a derivative from Validator which Guy programmed for Howard under contract. In summer 2004 (long before his final illness), Guy Wadsworth gave me the source code for both Validator and Speculator. Shortly after, I was also given code for a customized version of Speculator copyrighted by Wadsworth and one other individual (not D. Alliata). Guy Wadsworth died in January 2006. Before then, he had assigned his copyright (such as he was entitled to it, being derivative from software copyrighted by Dr Sartin) to me. The NewPace component and the 'moves' markups from Calibration Handicapping were coded by me, with kind permission from Dave Schwartz and Jim Lehane respectively.

During 2006, I and a dozen or so other RDSS, Validator and Speculator users conducted a 'validation' of the RDSS readouts compared to the older Validator program and supplied the results to Howard Sartin, now quite ill but newly encouraged in the interest being taken in continuing his life work. As result of this validation process, Sartin responded by penning an endorsement of RDSS and entering into an agreement with Equibase/TrackMaster where they would promote RDSS using his name. That's the whole story. Nothing 'stolen' or 'coerced' from Guy Wadsworth or from Howard Sartin. I paid my own money (with others) for Wadsworth's funeral; I pay an ongoing royalty to the Sartin Family; I pay $1500 cash annually so far to support the PACS Contest series here at PaceAdvantage.

Where do I get this money? How do I support myself to make P&C and the Sartin Library freely available, and support the PaceAdvantage contests and help others teach the Methodology to those who are interested? By promoting and licensing RDSS! This happens on P&C website. To say that P&C is a 'shill' for selling RDSS is like saying Jcapper.com is there to sell Jcapper, and HTR's website is there to sell HTR, and The Black Magic Forum there to sell BLAM, TheHorseHandicappingAuthority.com to sell Dave Schwartz' products, ad nauseum. In other words, duh - of course! If someone does not want to be subjected to info and discussion on RDSS or Sartin, just don't go to P&C! Simple - enjoy your life, be happy. And if you do want that info - you know where to go. I spend half my working life on the phone, on remote computer connections helping people learn RDSS, fostering various mentoring connections and other support activities at P&C. The other half of my time I spend programming. The 3rd half, I spend betting

I'm sure everyone is very bored by now reading this, and writing this was 2 hours of my life I won't get back. I believe I am entitled to respond to the inaccuracies and outright defamation written in this thread. I am sorry for Shoeless's and Partnut's bitterness and anger. The source of that is not me. The source of one's own troubles - and the potential to resolve and rise above them - always lies first within ones own self, no matter how hard it is sometimes to accept that.

I am always happy to talk to anyone about anything. After a couple of weeks off recuperating from surgery and then catching up, I owe a few replies to a few threads here at PA, and that's next. But this is all I really care to say on this topic in this thread.

Thanks for reading, and again my apologies for so many words.

Ted

[Ted Craven]

Originally Posted by exactor

I have nothing to do with shoeless, and don't intend to comment anymore on whatever teachings may be presented. My concern is only that it might reflect badly on horse racing if what is taught here is packaged as the be all end all of the methodology and users are still dissatisfied. It is after all posted as the premier handicapping approach on the equibase site.

Some users are dissatisfied, and some users are very satisfied, from what I hear. Isn't it always thus is any human gathering in any field?

It has never been my intention to package RDSS as the be all and end all of the Sartin Methodology. The fact that it is popular is not a simultaneous statement that other aspects of the Methodology, for example the visual, positional Matchup of The Hat and RichieP, or any other older Sartin software program - is currently invalid or inferior. Or that users of these are second class members of Pace and Cap. Some people may well 'interpret' that for themselves; people may interpret lots of things ...

I know of nowhere on Equibase or TrackMaster's site where RDSS is referred to as 'the premier handicapping approach'. (If you can point out this reference, I would appreciate it.) I created copy for TrackMaster (which Equibase later adapted for their site) referring to RDSS as based on Howard Sartin's last work, and endorsed by him.

I do appreciate your take that folks with no interest in RDSS may feel that other aspects of the Methodology get overlooked (despite separate forums devoted to them). Do you have advice on what further stance I might take on that issue?

Ted

[atkinsrr]

Hi Ted...just read your commentary ...I for one appreciate your explanations about everything that's happening on the site...no need to apologize.....I do have something that I would like for you to address and or correct if possible.

**Randy, I moved this query to its own Thread, just to keep the topic on track in this one. Here is your question's new location - I'll get to it shortly:

http://paceandcap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9265

.