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Old 07-20-2013, 11:05 AM   #1
Bill V.
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Do we help you ?

A former member who because of his actions is no longer allowed to
post here on pace and cap. made a post recently on Paceadvantage.com

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...73&postcount=1

I would like to address this issue here. I don't want to get into a confrontation
with this former member, I would like to speak on behalf myself and FTL and Ted and all those who are willing to help and teach.

I post a race as often as I can, I try to provide everybody with a chance to
look over the past performance, and I also try to provide all users of the methodology the tools they use. I show original pacelines, I show the
APV and Class ratings. I show the weight assignments, and the New Pace
readouts. When I have time I add a little comment on each horse.
The comments sometimes include my questions and my thoughts about some of the horses. I do this because I want to learn too.

When I choose a race to post I always bet the race myself unless the near post time odds tell me my selections offer no value.
I take great interest in the races I post, When I win a race I have posted I will just come on and post the result chart.
I try to post result charts that show the running position of the horses, I do this for the matchers on our board. I realize that
position is a vital part of the match up.When I loose a race I post the same result chart.

Now here is where I want to answer the former member.
I do not participate on any other horse racing forum, but I do read
Pace Advantage because I enjoy the game of horse racing.
Anyway I don't know the ins ad outs of other forums but
Pace and Cap is just about helping and teachingand discussing
the Sartin Methodology. To become a better winner with the methodology
you must know some basic facts about handicapping.
Doc Sartin often said he did not want to teach handicapping he wanted to help people who were handicappers but could not win as handicappers
He also said that for beginners to follow his guidelines but that some handicapping knowledge is important.

The former member says I come back after the fact and say 'If I use this line"
He is correct I often will come back after a race and ask If I had used line 4
would I have done better ? I can't see how this is a bad thing.

I recently posted a race, I did not enter a line for the winner
The horse won and with a morning line of 2/1 paid $12.00.

What followed was a great post race explanation of how this horse's
running style and training pattern and form cycle shows why this horse
won.

I got much more out of this race because I lost. The teachers here
have no ego's and fears of coming on and teaching where and when we go wrong.
Believe me, when I post a race and I win the race I am happy,
and take the money, But I really post races because win or lose I know
that there is a good lesson to be shown.

Bill
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Old 07-20-2013, 11:40 AM   #2
Lt1
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I enjoy reading the various threads posted by you,FTL,Ted, Richie P as well as those posted by other members. It's not easy to go out there and do what you guys do. I've been working with a few folks wanting to learn the methodology and always refer them to the teaching threads. I know it's helping them along with Richie P and his matchup threads. Keep up the good work.

Tim
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Old 07-20-2013, 12:34 PM   #3
clore1030
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Sure, you people here have helped me, and I've learned things from other sites also.

But, as you note, there are things to be learned from post-race analysis. One of the things that I've learned is that sometimes one does have to explore varying from the supposed path. Doc was fond of saying that one must dismiss all of the "old horsey sayings."

With that, I've also dismissed some of Doc's advice if I've discovered something that works for me that isn't in line with what he said a dozen or more years ago. To my way of looking at it, much of what was said way back when now falls into the "horsey sayings" category also.

I don't want to get into any finger pointing on specifics, but if I've found a way to make something work for me based on the methodology but not quite in 100% adherence to it, then I'm going to use it. I don't mean to sound like a heretic or someone embittered, but it's my money on the line, not Doc's or anyone else here. I survive best in my own comfort zone, and if that means betting one horse instead of two, that's my decision. At least you don't see me here whining that I lost because the methodology is in error.
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Old 07-20-2013, 01:07 PM   #4
noddub62
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Yes you do!

It is a great web site, full of help. My handicapping has improved greatly from Ted, Bill, FTL, Richie and too many to name so please keep it up.

It is too bad that the person that wrote that on PA is such a bitter, unhappy person. I really wish that he could turn that around and find some joy in life.

My opinion,
Bud
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Old 07-20-2013, 01:08 PM   #5
JimG
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Win or lose, I truly enjoy horse racing and interacting with other horse players. I have learned from many people here and at other racing sites. I tend not to just accept everything posted as fact. I like to check things out. I keep nuggets of info/methods that work for me. I discard the rest. This website and supporting materials give a fantastic education on pace and its importance in the game. Bill, Ted, and many others have made me a better player and I am truly thankful for that.

Bottom line, we are adults. If we win or lose, that is on the individual. Not some methodology, website, another player, the moon, stars, etc. To feel otherwise is a grand failure to accept personal responsiblity for your own actions. I think until someone can realize it is their own fault for losing, they will never become anything close to a winner.

Horse racing is a very tough game. That is why it is so easy to be frustrated and looking for someone or something to blame. I wish Shoeless nothing but success. But with that said, I do not think he should trash this website as it reflects on the fine people that come here to improve their game using RDSS or whatever methods they choose. I think letting go of negativity is vital to becoming a winner at this game. I hope Shoeless let's go of the negativity and enjoys the game.

Jim
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Old 07-21-2013, 10:16 AM   #6
Because I Can Jim
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Hey Bill,
I am sure that the last several posts has had an effect on everyone here at Pace and Cap. From your writing, I can tell it has a deep effect on you too. I can feel your pain.
When I was 20-25ish, I was in retail and then in sales. The altruistic side of be believed that what I was doing was in the best interest of the people I was trying to help. I felt good when someone bought something from me that I know they needed and would make their life better. But, out of the general public, there would always be those few... Back then, (in my immaturity and overall naiveness) I decided to leave retail and sales because I had had enough of the general public and did not want to have anything to do with them again. Funny how things work. I currently teach to the general public from all over the world. While the majority of people are decent people, there will always be those few... That is a reality of life. Yet personally, at the end of the day my heart and mind are bothered by those people that I come across. I try to leave those thoughts at work and I am blessed with a good support system at home for that occasional spillover into my personal life.
Regardless of what has happened (and I am sure it will happen again) I for one am grateful for you, Ted, FLT, lonespeed and everyone else that contributes in a constructive, non-judgemental manner by posting on this forum.
Back in 1985, I learned the methodology. For personal reasons, I left handicapping. Now, I wish to move on beyond the daily grind of dealing with the public, especially when they are calling me for help and are, well... I made the decision to use handicapping as the vehicle to make the change. I knew Howard and Jim would be well up in years and was saddened to see they had passed. I have to thank the people who created the internet because without it, the only link back to the Sartin methodology I would have is the red Matchup Manual which I managed to hold onto over the decades.
And then there is you. I am grateful to you and everyone else because in my searching for the Sartin Methodology, you’re maintaining this forum is the only link to the past. When you walk into a race book, racetrack, and simulcast center or wherever wagering on horse races is going on and you look around at all of the people there and everywhere, think about how few and rare you truly are to have done what you have done. You have archived and maintained a piece of the past that would have been lost very much like the writing of Huey Maul and Ray Talbot. Instead it is a living, thriving entity. Without you, I would not be where I am today. My heartfelt thanks you and you all.
Jim
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Old 07-22-2013, 05:42 AM   #7
Earl J
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Bill V..........Yes you guys do Help!!! Thank you!!! Don't let people that are making excuses bring you down...

Earl J
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Old 07-22-2013, 10:09 AM   #8
exactor
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To what extent are forums like these a surrogate for the on-track crowd, that the Doc was deriding ("who do you like", etc.). At the end of the day it's a loner's game, I believe.
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Old 07-22-2013, 10:42 AM   #9
clore1030
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The OP of that Pace Advantage thread has come back to elaborate his position. I'm not going to quote him as I'm not quite well-versed in this site's standards and practices in regard to such things.

I will say however that I've promoted a few of my own "contrary" opinions here and I've never met with resistance from the powers-that-be. That is perhaps because I have been careful to frame these opinions or observations in a respectful manner. Just because the perspective may be contrary, there's no need for my temperament to be so also.

That said, I have been subject to negative comments from other users, but that's par for the course. One of them was quite hostile that I disagreed with his particular guru, but as I look at it, that reflects more upon him than it does upon me.

I look at it this way - Doc and The Hat had distinct differences in the approach to handicapping. And neither held it against the other from the anecdotal evidence that I've read.
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Old 07-22-2013, 11:03 AM   #10
exactor
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I have nothing to do with shoeless, and don't intend to comment anymore on whatever teachings may be presented. My concern is only that it might reflect badly on horse racing if what is taught here is packaged as the be all end all of the methodology and users are still dissatisfied. It is after all posted as the premier handicapping approach on the equibase site.
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