RDSS Contest: on hold after December

[Ted Craven]

Hello folks,

Bill V and I have been talking and it seems like a good idea to pause the RDSS Learn to Win contest for a few months after December's contest is complete.

Among the reasons for this, in no particular order are: the Contest Manager (Bill V) needs a bit of a break; we want to pause to discuss alternate ways of presenting a Contest focused around learning; we want to know if more than the same dozen players are really interested, or can we entice new players by changing things.

With this in mind, could we have a discussion to help us renew a version of this Contest in the upcoming new year? What worked, what was valuable about the 2012 Contest? What drawbacks were there to the rules and format we used. Did LEARNING actually happen? Did the players and spectators improve their understanding of applying Sartin Methodology concepts; did people learn how to better use RDSS?

Was the betting structure too limited (e.g. need more pools, such as Exacta)? Was there just too little analysis about most contest picks? Were the consistency rules useful, or just irritating? What were the drawbacks of limiting players to RDSS users? Did reuiring screenshots just scare people away? Were the prizes too much, too little, irrelevant?

Any and all thoughts will be much appreciated and help us devise something new to foster the learning and mastery of our tools.

Here are some of my thoughts, FWIW:

1. I owe a big debt, as I believe we all do, to Bill V who stepped up immediately in the beginning to offer his time and inspiration to manage the contest. He did a LOT more than simply record the scores and enforce the rules: he actively worked and gave feedback and insight to many, many races and helped both newcomers and us old dogs see a little more clearly the gold lying within our RDSS readouts and processes. It was not easy work for him, though he has told me often how much he loved and benefited from it. Also, thanks in recent months to For the Lead for stepping up to give his valuable insights into Contender and Paceline selection. And to everyone else who has taken the time to document their decision process and help us understand - and give feedback on - how they approach race analysis and betting.

2. Thank you to Ray K (Buffaloxp) for suggesting the contest in the first place and for providing prize funding every single month. One of Ray's concerns was that any contest emphacize consistency, not just swing for the fences like a gambler; and that it help him learn how to be a better analyst himself by requiring players at least minimally explain how they came up with their contenders and bets. Hence the core aspects of documenting your analysis with a RDSS screen (if not also further detailed descriptions) and rewarding consistence with a bonus.

3. Any future similar contest here, for me, should have teaching/learning at its core as well. There are lots of other places to play in Contests (PaceAdvantage, for example) where simple bragging rights or striving for personal excellence (and some prizes) is the focus - but not necessarily helping others to learn how to be better at their game. Howard Sartin's work always had a 'helping' orientation - and that has always been the foundation principle of Pace and Cap as well.

4. I think there is a strong requirement for teaching and learning about RDSS, specifically. It need not be a contest format, but detailed discussions and illustrations help enormously. There are roughly a dozen new people each month who take up RDSS (though not that many choose to persist with it). New outreach will NOT focus on using Synergism, EXDC, Thoromation, Validator or any of the older programs - because they are no longer available. Regardless of my personal bias in favour of RDSS - people need tools to work with to implement their understanding of Sartin Methodology concepts. RDSS is a modern tool, with a future. For better or for worse, it's ongoing use and success is what finances this website, the Library, the discussions we have here - the outreach which Howard Sartin hoped would continue to happen.

5. I myself bet Win Win/Place, Exacta and increasingly Doubles and Pick3s. Perhaps a future contest situation could incorporate some alternate betting options.

6. Perhaps it does not need to be a contest at all - perhaps with the momentum and familiarity of what we have been doing for the past 6 months, people will simply continue to make similar posts in the Selections Forum, explaining their process and requesting feedback.

However, I do favour a Contest format - it enforces a discipline (got to work a certain number of races per month, measure your success over a long enough period to smooth out the short term randomness; got to explain to others, and thus to yourself, why you do what you do). The daily record keeping of your bets and betting style (and what works and what does not) is an invaluable discipline.

7. Maybe 20 races per month is too much though; maybe the notion of a monthly contest is too relentless ?

8. Would anyone participate if there were no prizes?

These are just some thoughts so far. I'm sure I'll have more.

cheers,

Ted

[pktruckdriver]

Yes Bill , you deserve a bigtime atta boy, your time and patience for all of us was top notch Sir. How bout a Big Old Christmas Ham for all you did, if you eat ham that is. I think you got Albertson's ,Von's, Ralph's out yout way , no.

I know I really appreciated ALL YOU DID, and I know everyone else did too.

Now that we got that out of the way, maybe a thanks also to Raymond, a wonderful guy with an even better attitude towards helping and handicapping, and of course learning, and I for one wish to say he has done an awesome job of learning RDSS, growing his small business successfully, and learning to cummincate better, all done thru trial and error, but never being afriad to try and always getting back up , like winners always do .

I like prizes, no matter what they are, a handshake and pat on the back ( physically, I mean ) or a free year, both are cool, and when, won, means you tried and did something and won, which I think we all can learn here, with these people here, as plenty of winners are here and willing to help make you a winner too, and this I promise you , only thing is , you must at least try it ( whether RDSS and horses , or any thing in life ) . Enough on this , but this site can make you a winner, Why? Because people here care and help others who want to learn, ask or post anything here and someone will help you. Right?

I posted selections , and /or 20 race cycles of varying wagering stragetigies, In the Selctions thread., some I had explanations on others not so much, a few questions and otherwise they went unnoticed for the most part, yet I saw no one else do this, so doing it for free or no contest, I think maybe not, yet then again , join me and we keep going with others cycles, (FOR THOSE WITH UNLIMITED DOWNLOADS), I have 9 more downloads this month to use, but now with the Pace Advantages contest, I can download what I need for them. I can still post them here as a 20 race cycle, why, because then I will have a record of what I did, and hopefully getting that much better, form using those records to find what wins for you, simple, but not easy.

I know this is not finished, but I just found out, and I will complete this post later.

My prayers for those kids and family in CT.

All my Prayers

Patrick

[Hoof 11]

First off, i tip my hat to all involved with the learn to win contest, especially Bill V and FTL, you guys worked unselfishly and you deserve a big thank-you. I read threw most of the posts and picked up some valuable knowledge along the way, i think this is a very useful way of learning the methodology and becoming a better handicapper along the way.

Ted asked me in the spring to join this contest and for several reasons i declined, it's not worth getting into the specifics but in some ways i regret my decision. In the new year i will be joining the contest if and when it resumes.

Woodbine is just about done for the season and i'm pretty much done for the year, i want to spend the winter reading and getting back to learning the parts of the methodology that i haven't got to yet. I really want to get down to the nitty gritty of the methodology, for i have found weaknesses in myself and i don't think i can correct them on my own.

From my perspective i could care less about the prizes in the contest, the real prizes are in the pools. Understanding the methodology is a little more important to me and you can't put a price on that. Ted, i think this is a great idea and i hope you continue with the contest, and i apologize for not being more accommodating.

I wish all the RDSS users a very Merry Christmas, and much success in the new year, especially Barb and company in the PA contest next year.

[barb craven]

Thanks for that Hoof and a very Merry Christmas to you and your family.

And I add my grateful thanks to Bill V. for doing a Trojan job and shouldering most of the work, Ray (Buffaloxp) for initiated the idea of a contest and putting up the prize money, and Ted who monitors everything and FTL for all his insight and teaching. He answered many questions or me, especially how to decipher what kind of race the current one you were playing was.

I too think after a break the contests should continue. It really doesn`t matter about the prizes, but the feedback you get from the races you post is invaluable. I don`t know if there would be enough people who would post their picks for the day to be discussed if there wasn`t some incentive, even just bragging rights.
I would like to see the betting structure widen a little to include at least exactas, daily doubles and pick threes. More would be good, but might put too much of a strain on Bill or whomever is the scorer.
The teaching part is the key to all of this. There may have only been a few who participated in the contest every month, but I would be willing to bet that there were a great deal more who followed everything that was posted and learned along the way. I think it would be a shame if this format didn`t continue after a much needed hiatus.

[cody]

I would like to thank everyone involved with the contest,especially Bill and FTL for all the time they put in.Its not about the prizes for me its about learning.I would like to see a permission list,and if you give your ok it would let people like Bill,FTL,Ted jump in and show you what you did wrong on a race you posted,to me a picture is worth a thousand words.

Cody

[pktruckdriver]

Sorry this post was cut in halve, but I think we all can understand why.

Now, back to having a hiatus, it makes sense when only ONE PERSON is scoring and ruling on the contest, this person would need a break, but if others were to step up, would it then be able to continue we ask, the prize money can not be an issue I am sure, there is the post showing how to score using the Spreadsheet I think Bill said Ted developed for the contest, yes it would takee some considerable time to input the plays into it manually, the only way it can be done, I did have time, the past few months to try to learn this, but mooving forward it seems my time MAY be limited, personal matters, otherwise with out any one stepping in to score then I think Bill needs a break, hecck it is almost Bowl Season and NFL Playoff time, a perfect time to take a hiatus, as well as slow winter racing next month.

As for doing this ourselves in the selection area, as Ted asked me to do, and I have done, but no one else has, kinda proves to me , without a contest NO ONE wants to play or learn this way. I have had a few responses from a few people here, great comments all, but way too few, I mean I posted many Cycle's using many methods and yes there were some just posted and other's with screenshots, but without any reason to do so, I did some without, and I learned from them, but none were that impressive, a few maybe, but overall, practice is still needed for sure. But isn't this what PRACTICE IS ?

Is it wrong to practice out in the forum for all to see, it seems Ted and others seem to think it would be nice, but how about something different then.

HOW BOUT SOME LIVE PLAY SESSIONS , just for beginners....more idea's to come if wanted

I see the Contest's on PA are starting again, and Raymond (BuffaloXP ) still does not have any teamates yet, why is this, he is a great guy , yet no one is willing to make a team with him, very sad indeed. Yes I know last year we were teammates, with another RDSS who quit on us, yet we held our own, thanks in part to him, yet this year something else has intrigued me enough to team up with them and I have done so, and now I can't be RDSS afilliated, why is this? I am sorry for Raymond, yet I had no thoughts that he could not get a few people to join with him on a team, thus expanding his netwwork of RDSS users, getting him to work with other people, helping him to see other methods also, is this wrong of me, maybe, if so I apologize for it, but come on people, do not leave a greaat man teamless, okay. I know others here do not use RDSS but are on RDSS teams, please explain this to me, I think I am RDSS, and yes I also am on the HSH Skype group too, as great knowledge comes from there too, like what you may ask. Well for one thing LIVE PLAY, yes actual live play, why do we not do that here, or create our own Skype group for LIVE PLAY, I like it and a few others here have joined me, with some success too. I will let them post iff they want , as I will keep them out of the this unless they don't mind, then they can post here and explain what we do.

These are a few things I had to say about this, as always thanks Bill, your time dedicated to this Contest was tremendous and yes you deserve a break , no doubt about that, sorry my time to help has passed, I wish otherwise, but life goes on and things change, I hope you come back again, too bad your video explaining the scoring did not bring forward anyone to help you, oh well. Thanks

Merry Christmas all

Patrick

[JimG]

First of all, I think Bill has done a tremendous job with the scoring and comments, etc. He genuinely wants to help people and that clearly comes through. Bill is one of a kind and we are lucky to have him.

Ted, I think teaching is a wonderful idea and hopefully has a positive affect on RDSS and its future. I fully support the idea of using RDSS when in teaching mode. It is important to show how the software can make a positive impact on current and prospective customers. It is a full featured software and cannot help but make one a better player. I think teaching should continue with teachers having a separate area on the website to expound upon the methodology as they see fit. Races worked before and after the fact should be used with feedback not only welcomed but strongly encouraged. It should be free flow and all would be welcome.

With the above said, I think contests are a different animal. When I play a contest, I want to win. Plain and simple. I think most of us in the racing game are strongly competitive. That along with being opinionated and having the courage to bet our money on it is paramount to success. I suggest doing contests quarterly at the most, with the participants being limited to those (students and teachers) participating (posting) in the teaching section I advocate for in the prior paragraph. I'm sure many of us would donate to the prize pool and I think subscriptions to data etc. for RDSS is a wonderful enticement.

The bottom line is Pace and Cap is the place to go to for information on the Sartin Methodology with participants willing to answer questions to help those new to the concept. However, it is very important that we support RDSS and its development as much as possible. Ted's success is our success. Even those with older programs should consider at least trying RDSS and seeing if it can improve their performance. Given Microsoft and their propensity to get rid of old technology, who knows how long we will be able to run old dos programs.

FWIW, those are my thoughts.

Jim

[Ted Craven]

Originally Posted by pktruckdriver

I see the Contest's on PA are starting again, and Raymond (BuffaloXP ) still does not have any teamates yet, why is this, he is a great guy , yet no one is willing to make a team with him, very sad indeed. Yes I know last year we were teammates, with another RDSS who quit on us, yet we held our own, thanks in part to him, yet this year something else has intrigued me enough to team up with them and I have done so, and now I can't be RDSS afilliated, why is this? I am sorry for Raymond, yet I had no thoughts that he could not get a few people to join with him on a team, thus expanding his netwwork of RDSS users, getting him to work with other people, helping him to see other methods also, is this wrong of me, maybe, if so I apologize for it, but come on people, do not leave a greaat man teamless, okay. I know others here do not use RDSS but are on RDSS teams, please explain this to me, I think I am RDSS, and yes I also am on the HSH Skype group too, as great knowledge comes from there too, like what you may ask.

I believe Ray K (Buffaloxp) is on a team with Jon L (Mr Pagine). I may be wrong but I think they may need one more member. One of them still needs to register the team in the PAIHL signup area.

Patrick, nothing stops you from associating your PAIHL team with RDSS, except the consensus of your teammates. It's up to you and them, not me. Go for it (send a note to Jay Trotter; your team affiliation can be HSH/RDSS if your teammates agree). There are several teams affiliated with RDSS who have only 1 member using RDSS. There are other folks (clearly) using RDSS who are on teams who perhaps have no intention of associating with RDSS. Same was true the past 2 years. Like yourself, some people use more than one software tool. Whatever - it's all good. And not up to me.

Ted

[Ted Craven]

Originally Posted by pktruckdriver

... I also am on the HSH Skype group too, as great knowledge comes from there too, like what you may ask. Well for one thing LIVE PLAY, yes actual live play, why do we not do that here, or create our own Skype group for LIVE PLAY, I like it and a few others here have joined me, with some success too. I will let them post iff they want , as I will keep them out of the this unless they don't mind, then they can post here and explain what we do.

OK I created this other thread to discuss how to get Live play going, initially using a Skype Group (whatever that is): http://paceandcap.com/forums/showthread.php?p=87393

Please post to this other thread with follow up about Live play, using Skype of any other tools (e.g. TeamViewer). An excellent idea, and related to the live online RDSS Clinics I was going to do before I had to take some time off, and will start up again in January.

Anyone who understand how to do this effectively (i.e. sharing screens as well as voice or text), please contribute your expertise.

Ted

[Bill V.]

Thank You All


I apologize that I have hit the wall as far as being the contest manager.
It was a great contest and It gave me so much joy
Sadly it also took its toll I could not handle the judging part of the job.
I could not rest and relax when It seemed like people made honest mistakes
or had forgotten to post screen shots or would run out of time at the end of the month
Even something like posting the result update got to be a very stressful job
as I always tried to encourage the people who won races and to give props to the leaders However in doing so I felt like I was not being fair to everybody



Anyway As Patrick says I hope when the contest resumes There will be a new manager
Its really not too hard to enter the results each day but it does take a great deal of time

I am sure Ted can have a new manager up to speed in no time

I do have three ideas for future contest

1. It should be open to all users of the Match up and all Sartin program

2. The contest "Hit Rate" is vital and should be the backbone of the selection process. but a 3 strikes and your out scoring system would be helpful
As Doc writes in the Follow Up after 3 consecutive loses you should take a break a reread the follow ups, So after 3 consecutive losing races you should be out of that months contest.

3. The prize fund should be much smaller this way people try to win but also bet in a more relaxed truthful way