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Old 02-16-2019, 03:37 PM   #51
Bill V.
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Thank you to Mitch

Hello South side rob

welcome to pace and cap

Here is a good example of the preceptor

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In today's 4th race from FG the # 8 horse has the best perception total line score.

The perceptor line score is a low is best type rating

The horses with the best ratings of the 7 basic Sartin pace ratings
gets a 0.0 rating The lower the score means that horse ran the best
number from its paceline.

In the above example, The #7 horse ran, and earns the best EPR rating
so it gets the 0.0 rating, Horses 3 and 2 ran very slow EPR's relative to the field or this matchup, and so they get a very high 28.9 and 28.3 rating.

For LPR the #3 gets the best rating compared to the field So it gets the 0.0

But our example horse, Horse #8 gets the best rating for CPR,TT,HID,FW,and FX

Now RDSS adds up the totals for the 7 factors
The lowest total score gets the 0.0 rating for the total perceptor readout.

On the paceline screen the concept is the same But on the paceline screen
The perceptor is a rating based on rating each paceline

For our horse #8 its best paceline or the pace line with the lowest linescore
is line 1

Name:  Beau.PNG
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so lastly

Horse 8's perceptor rating from the last paceline is the best for the horse
and its also the best when rated against all the other horses best

Good Skill
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Old 02-18-2019, 08:52 AM   #52
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Thanks Bill, that does help but I am so far behind what is going on with the software vs what I've read from Brohamer's book. The array of velocities he speaks about are F1, F2, F3, EP, SP, AP, and FX. Here, we have EPR, LPR, CPR, TT, HID, FW, and FX. Plus, in the manual, they talk about some of these primary factors being weighted (My guess is the more predictive a velocity is would receive more weight than the one's that don't).

Right now, I'm more interested in how perceptor determines which pace line to use for each horse for starters. Now, with help from you and Mitch, I do understand how the paceline is determined, I just have to figure out how different these factors are from Brohamer's. I also own the Pace of the Race book which might help me understand the differences.

Thanks again. For those who don't know me, I'm also a custom programmer who loves to test as many different scenario's as I can. Ted and I had a nice conversation about it when I signed up but for now, I need to learn all the concepts the program displays which appears to be quite a bit so I'm excited to get up to speed and hopefully, make a few bucks
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Old 02-18-2019, 02:46 PM   #53
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As a programmer SouthSideRob the way Sartin wrote will drive one nuts. Definitely not in a clear and concise manner. He also was adapt at improving things yet called it the same name. This prevented his hard work from being stolen as they never came up with the same figures he came up with. Turn Time as an example.

All this really has no bearing on one's game as they don't have to know what's in it to use it. Simply track different factors and see what works. Using all 3 Fr.'s is still of primary importance over just using two and increased the winner getting ability of Sartin later programs.

Brohamers book was state of the art at the time and still is the jumping off point for everything that came after. The 3 Fr's are the foundation for everything and are used in every program or factor that came along after his book.

The CPR formula in RDSS isn't the same as the original formula (TPR)which is widely known but why we have a TPR + E/L tab screen, I can't answer except to say probably tradition. On both screens the figures are the same and are CPR figures.

Some changes were hidden and some were disguised by a different way of displaying them. Such as FPS for different Fr's and later he used percentages or %, 55.63 FPS or 34.19 % in Energy of the whole. The measurement it self is exactly the same. Some understood % better than FPS but as part of the whole or Total Energy their the same.

Learn to drive the car and try not to become a mechanic. The car isn't broke and works, tinkering will just upset the timing of the engine and drive you to pull over in frustration waiting for a tow to arrive.

Enjoy the ride,


Last edited by Mitch44; 02-18-2019 at 02:50 PM.
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Old 02-18-2019, 03:36 PM   #54
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I'm building my RDSS database. In the meantime, I'm the kind of person who likes to understand the variables. Whatever is proprietary to RDSS is proprietary. I understand that and by no means am I trying to replicate what Ted and others have done here. Sounds to me that you do quite well spotting trends in some of the factor rankings and that has brought you success. I think that's great. Right now, I only have a few weeks of data for 3 or 4 tracks so I like to learn what the numbers are telling me. It's hard to participate in some of the conversations if I don't understand what each factor is saying about each contender/non-contender. I understand what you are saying but I won't have enough information to play through RDSS for 2 or more weeks yet (In my opinion).
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Old 02-18-2019, 07:05 PM   #55
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Hello Rob,
In no way was I talking of things propriety in RDSS , just how Sartin wrote and thought. It pays to read his material more than once before the person gets it.

You don't need a very large data base to start seeing the factors that are important, Sartin always preached to learn concept not every detail. Look for factors that work at all tracks, surfaces etc., factors that are universal not necessarily track specific. I don't use a track profile or model because I play so many different tracks. If I was strictly devoted to one track than I would.

You can Google from this site to learn more about a factor and many members are willing to help. Ask away. If I can be of help PM me .

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Old 02-18-2019, 08:03 PM   #56
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Hi Rob. I agree with Mitch in that you don't have to be a mechanic to drive the car. Doc always told us that we didn't need to know how things worked just that they did. I only play 1 track a day so I maintain a track model for every track play by distance and surface.
By doing so it becomes very apparent what factors win at any track at any dist and surface.
Trust but verify
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:16 PM   #57
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I didn't mean to imply anything Mitch. I guess I wanted you and all the readers to understand that I am trying to understand the variables and not necessarily replicate them. The EPR, LPR, and TPR (I believe) come from Pace Makes the Race. Why they have a universal parallel chart in that book, it appears RDSS has their own custom chart for each track or, it adjusts for track variant ect... 80 is considered par or average. 90's and up are very fast to the pace call while 90's and up in the LPR (or FFR as the book calls it) would be very fast abilities after the pace call. (Guessing good turf runners might see FFR's in the 90's). TPR is just the two numbers added together which might be called CPR on the RDSS (or, it might not). If I'm (In the ballpark) of what those values hold, I'm happy with that in that while it is used to rank among other horses, I now have a relative idea of what it represents which is what I was looking for. For example, if I see a horse ranked #1 with a 95, I can probably expect him to slow after the pace call but what if I have a horse ranked #1 with an 82? I may want to test when the ranked #1 horse is lower, how many times was it able to finish 1st or 2nd? That's what I like to do. I'm not against seeing how many times the #1 ranked horse did in (pick a factor) did in its last 20 races, I like to utilize the value as well. Again, I'm a stat geek and just can't help myself
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Old 02-19-2019, 08:31 AM   #58
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Pace Makes the Race is a good book and an excellent starting point Rob. That's how it all started. Its advance concepts section or chapter is excellent. From there they evolved to FPS and the use of 3 Fr's which brought new factors and concepts. It will give you a full understanding of CPR within RDSS today, it had been tweaked and is a much better product than the old Phase 1 or what's within PMTR.

They struggled for years testing and attempting to come up with better adjustments. Finally they succeeded and its within the president day RDSS.

Your in the right ballpark.Be careful with assumptions in that just because a horse runs a 95 early that he'll slow down late. NOT SO! There are at least seven different running pattern for horses. Horses don't decelerate at the same rate or pattern. The classier the horse the longer it can hold that speed. A Gr.1 horse can run a 95 EPR and run a 95 or 100 LPR. Now a cheap claiming horse can be accepted to slow down after a 95 EPR. Even within he same class horses don't decelerate at the same rate. Some decelerate slowly and some rapidly.

As a stat geek your going to find the biggest smorgasbord ever encountered with the combination of Sartin and horseracing. Possibilities are endless, numerous combinations and only limited by one's own limitations. Most just won't do the work, don't work smartly or spend too much time on wasteful collection of data.

Rob I believe you'll do well.


Last edited by Mitch44; 02-19-2019 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 02-19-2019, 12:44 PM   #59
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Mitch, those EPR and LPR numbers were just an extreme example to help get my point across. I understand what you mean. Thanks...
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Old 02-28-2019, 12:38 PM   #60
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Question Is Supertote working Today?

Supertote is not giving me scratches or live odds? 02/28/2019?
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