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2008 Breeders' Cup 2008

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Old 10-26-2008, 12:17 PM   #11
Bill V.
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not 100%

The guidelines for playable races might not be that strict
I do recall on the original Validator demo tape that came with the program
Doc doing a race The winner and place horse were in the blbl
but the show horse was an Irish horse- North something
I recall Doc saying the winner and place horses are right there
we do not get the trifecta the show horse was an irish horse with no north
american lines I think the need at least 3 lines for all races was the
personal preference of Aline Best

I believe the guidelines are any race with more than 1 horses
with no usable pace lines should be a pass
Rich if I'm wrong please let me know
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Old 10-26-2008, 12:42 PM   #12
Charlie D
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Lou, Tom and others i've read seem to give thumbs up to the TF conversion, so maybe using that is the answer until someone gets thier act together.

Don't know how they went on, but PTC produced Beyers for Euro's this time around
"To me, The Match Up supercedes everything"

Last edited by Charlie D; 10-26-2008 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 10-26-2008, 01:42 PM   #13
Tim Y
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starting to come to frution

I believe the events of this year's WORLD CHMPIONSHIPS are the beginning of a need to "wake up" the North American breeding industry to the fact that STAMINA is disappering from their offspring.

Myself, and my good friend Erwin (leftcoastracing.com, a Hasting's website devoted to an aspect called his "stayers watch" for stamina horses and his lamenting, like I do, that it is disappering) have harped on it for years: breed speed to speed and eventually we are going to have 4 furlong horses. It is this aspect of racing that I HAVE EXLPOITED FOR YEARS, knowing that earlier horses have a huge advantage since stamina is disappearing in the breed. In 1991, in Unbridled's Kentucky Derby BLOODHORSE issue, the editor's published a long winded editorial I wrote about just this thing and received good feedback from reader's who agreed with my contention that without graded stakes stamina tests, the breed would ultimately be doomed. EQUATIONS need balance, and when speed is overwhelming this one and stamina is under represented, that equation just cannot endure.

If you do not provide a GRADED stakes platform to allow breeder's to understand where stamina lines come from at that level of competition, it will be just a guess as to where those genetic lines come from. The Breeder's Cup MARATHON was a real joke this year and all you had to do was bet all the European horses. THEIR idea of a marathon is the Ascot GOLD CUP, a race of 20 furlongs, and there are many of them. Muhannak was stamina laden with turf pedigree on the top and bottom and even the "dirt" is no longer sacrosanct to the North American speed types.

Time to wake up or the times for European dominance of these WORLD championships is just beginning.
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Old 10-26-2008, 03:08 PM   #14
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oops that was 1990
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Old 10-28-2008, 06:06 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by RichieP View Post
The Euro's absolutely kicked ass both on the Pro Ride and turf. Yesterday was a joke as our horses basically were overmatched in practically every race.

Expect more of the same next year possibly worse as the venue will remain the same and the Euro's will have seen the destruction they did and more quality runners will be coming here.

Matching horses and pace readouts will be meaningless as winner after winner shows Euro lines with no fractional segments.
This published yesterday

Curlin's failure to make the frame in the Classic was surprising enough for the local fans, as Raven's Pass, from John Gosden's stable in Newmarket, and Aidan O'Brien's Henrythenavigator filled the first two places. But it was just the last in a series of nasty surprises for American racing on an afternoon when five of the nine Breeders' Cup races were won by horses trained in Europe.

Even that statistic does not tell the whole story, as Europe did not have a runner in the Sprint, and only a no-hoper in the Dirt Mile. Look at it that way, and it was five from seven. No wonder the racegoers looked dazed as they walked into the Californian sunset. This was a rout, a rearrangement of the accepted order and the aftershocks may be felt for years.

Four British-based horses returned as winners, while Goldikova, from Freddy Head's yard in Chantilly, took the Mile with a performance that would have been the clear highlight on any other afternoon. In addition to Raven's Pass, Donativum took the Juvenile Turf for Gosden, Muhannak, from Ralph Beckett's yard, won the Marathon and Sir Michael Stoute's Conduit beat Eagle Mountain, from South Africa, in the Turf.

It was an afternoon that, from a European perspective, you hoped would never end. And in a sense, it won't, for another 12 months at least, since the Breeders' Cup will return to Santa Anita next year. After Saturday's performances, you have to expect that the Cup will be overrun with Europeans next year.
The glass is half full!

Last edited by RichieP; 10-28-2008 at 06:12 AM.
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Old 10-28-2008, 08:16 AM   #16
Charlie D
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Marathon - US challenge here is non existant
Mile turf - US challenge here is Kip deville
Juvvi turf - US challenge here is ????
BC Turf - US Challlenge here is non existant
Classic - US challenge here is Curlin

This is why Euro's won 5-9
"To me, The Match Up supercedes everything"

Last edited by Charlie D; 10-28-2008 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 10-28-2008, 09:56 AM   #17
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Something to tuck away for next year especially for players of Horizontal wagers.. Since we don't have much to go by pace wise with the Euro's. A common trait among all of this years winners is strong recent form. Every winner won last out as a matter of fact, every winner had at least back to back wins.

Consecutive Wins

Muhannak 2
Goldikova 3
Donativium 2
Conduit 2
Ravens Pass 2
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Old 10-28-2008, 01:12 PM   #18
Tim Y
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words of wisdom from a dear friend who is a very good trainer: MOST of the winners today SURVIVE the pace, they don't close on it. Remember that when you wager. Out front, the others have to come and get them and they usually don't, not the majority of the horses bred in North America.
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Old 10-28-2008, 02:37 PM   #19
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European Connections

I look at connections when I am trying to evaluate Euro shippers. Also as has been pointed out Pro-Ride was a determining factor for many more European horses shipping in. As Richie pointed out this will happen again next year.

Connections BC Mile Race 4. – Goldikova – Trained by Freddy Head. He was the jockey on both of Miesque’s BC Mile wins. He comes back as the trainer and Freddy Head has compared Goldikova to Miesque. I find that European horsemen tend to be more candid when evaluating the chances of their charges. This is my impression anyhow. Owner and Breeder Wertheimer and Frere. The Wertheimer brothers won the 1993 Breeders Cup Turf with Kotashann and the 2003 BC Juvenile fillies with Halfbridled.

BC Race 5 – Midshipman – Owner Darley Stable (Sheikh Mohammed) ruler of Dubai.

BC Race 6 – Donativum – Trainer John Gosden. Owner – H.R.H Princess Haya of Jordan and Darley Stable. Dettori the jockey. Westphalia – Owner – Mrs John Magnier. Trainer – Aidan O’Brien. In all reality owned by John Magnier who is said to be the most influential man in horseracing and breeding worldwide even over Sheik Mohammed bi Rashid Al Maktoum. His business associates include Derrick Smith and Michael Tabor. His wife is the daughter of Vincent O’Brien legendary Irish trainer.

BC Race 8 – Conduit - Trainer Sir Michael Stoute – He has won 4 BC races. And with Conduit this particular race 3 times.(Pilsudski 1996 and Kalanisi 2000) Owner and Breeder – Ballymacoll Farm. An excerpt :

Racing Career: Since it's purchase in 1960, 27 individual winners of Group 1 races (including two Breeders' Cup champions and three British classic winners), who were successful in 48 Group 1 events have been bred at Ballymacoll. Going back to 1957, the legendary steeplechaser, Arkle, was born at Ballymacoll. The best products of the stud include Troy (winner of the 1979 Derby, Irish Derby, King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Diamond Stakes and Benson and Hedges Gold Cup), Sun Princess (1983 Oaks and St Leger), Admetus (1974 Washington International), Prince of Dance (1988 Dewhurst Stakes), Pilsudski (1996 Breeders' Cup Turf, Grosser Preis von Baden, 1997 Champion Stakes, Japan Cup, Eclipse and Irish Champion Stakes), Golan (2001 2,000 Guineas, 2002 King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Diamond Stakes), Islington (Yorkshire Oaks 2002 and 2003, Nassau Stakes 2002, Breeders Cup Filly & Mare Turf 2003) and North Light (2004 Epsom Derby

Ballymacoll Stud is a 300 acre farm originally owned by Dorothy Paget, which, along with its stock of over 100 horses, was sold by her to Lord Weinstock and his father-in law Sir Michael Sobell in 1960 for £250,000 ... Sobell was a self-made television tycoon who was involved with the stud until his death at the age of 100 in September 1993. Lord Arnold Weinstock had a 33-year career as a director and chairman of the General Electric Company (GEC) before his death in July 2002. Since then the stud has been run by Weinstock's executors on behalf of his family and has been a stand-alone operation having to fund itself and not make a loss ... Peter Reynolds has been the stud manager for the past 35 years. His daughter Liz Reynolds is an instrumental part of American bloodstock agency Paramount Sales headed by Pat Costello and Gabriel Duignan in Kentucky

Eagle Mountain – Trainer – Michael de Kock – South Africa’s leading trainer. The growing popularity of the Dubai Racing Carnival on his doorstep prompted Sheikh Mohammed in 2006 to expand his operation to Dubai and Mike de Kock was recommended as a trainer to support him. They met with Mike and Mohammed Khaleel visited South African on the Sheikh’s behalf and liked it.

BC Race 9 (Classic) –Raven’s Pass – Owner – H.R.H Princess Haya of Jordan and Darley Stable. Trainer John Gosden Jockey- Dettori.

Henrythenavigator – Owner- Mrs John Mangnier. Trainer –Aidan O’Brien. (See BC Race #6).

Breeder’s Cup Races 6, 8, and 9 had some decent exacta’s. Races 6 & 9 the top 2 finishers had the same connections. This does not suggest this will happen next year, but in the absence of any pacelines I use the information that I do have available which also includes their performances and also Timeform Ratings. Of course you can always pass these races, and it is true that certain years the European horses in the BC races have not performed as well. In any case I think the European horsemen view the Pro-Ride surface favorably and I expect them to enter more horses next year. Other than Curlin in the Classic I think many of the U.S. Based horses were severely overmatched in several of the BC races.
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Old 10-28-2008, 02:54 PM   #20
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BC Results

I did get involved in actually betting some of these "Connections" I was talking about. Alot of action and a little profit ($95.00). My money management needs work.
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Last edited by Houndog; 10-28-2008 at 02:56 PM.
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