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Old 08-28-2009, 04:09 PM   #1
Bob Cochran
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A Question Posed 1986

This was a question posed at the Sartin Methodology Las Vegas Seminar.
I remember it as if were asked in the present Pace and Cap Forum.

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO GET FROM THE SARTIN METHODOLOGY? or WHAT DO
YOU WANT TO DO WITH IT.?

I never saw so many confused looks within a large group, in my entire life.

AND THEN CAME THE QUESTION, WHAT ARE YOU WILLING TO DO TOWARD THAT END?

I would like to pose the same question to all visiting the Forum. Simply state your thoughts and opinions for all to read. It might produce different
perspectives than most originally held. It might also give direction to those
who have no answers or opinions regarding the Questions.

This is a good reality check .
Please participate, there is no right or wrong answers to the questions.

Bob Cochran
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Old 08-28-2009, 04:25 PM   #2
Bill V.
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My goal dream desire wish

Hello Bob

From the first time I called Howard Sartin I knew I wanted to succeed
I felt right away that this was what I needed. from day 1 I wanted to win
but as time has passed, I have relized that there is more to winning than cashing win bets

What I have always wanted was to learn and copy what winners do
I wanted to get from the Methodology a way to follow guidelines that would make something I liked (horse racing ) into something I could do
I knew right away froom talking to Howard that I had found my desire

I went on to looking for the methodology to get me to be a big winner
a big shot I could walk into any track or OTB and take it all
I wanted to be the big high roller

This all changed when after really understanding Doc's work
The Psychology of Winning I learned that I best be myself.

This came to a head when I visited Howard and than later
when I visited Jim Bradshaw I then wanted to work hard and study the patterns and methods of these men. because I saw that
what I really wanted all along was to be myself A man who worked
hard and believed and earned everything that was given to me
I set a goal that some how I could be a man looked at as A
good man with a happy home and family and friends that could win
have fun and live with self respect while enjoying my interst

My next goal is to be able to stop being a puppet to rich men and
spending all my time making them richer

Imy goal is to win enough that I can have the llife I seek
and say that I did it with the help of Howard Jim and
friends while following the methodology

Bill V.
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Old 08-28-2009, 05:34 PM   #3
Bob Cochran
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My Interest in the Sartin Methodology

From the time I met Doc Howard Sartin at the 1986 Chicago Seminar, i always
felt this was it, I finally had the answer. My wife and I met an honest man.

I had an interest in racing since the 1950's when i saw my father sitting on the
side of his bed writing all these numbers on what looked like a phone book.
It was the Daily Telegraph and the Racing Record. He would shoosh me out of the room.

As a young man i began to buy books, systems, seminars , you name it. I even
subscribed to a selection service and abruptly cancelled. None of these things
contained an answer or the "secret" of winning at the races, but i squeezed
some valuable info from each and they paid for themselves.

There were some great guys and girls learning the Methodology at this time.
Bob Purdy was creating Synergism, Jimmy was creating the MatchUp, Tom
Brohammer was compiling material for the Pace Handicapping, Michael was
handicapping every race in the Racing Form, and Marion Jones was sharing
his expertise and knowledge on Turf Racing. Jim Quinn was writing his famous
book on Class. Huey Mahl had written "Pace Makes the Race".

These were fantastic times with good people. A great learning experience for myself. I had finally learned how, and why i was able discover the secret
of horse racing.

It's hard work, discipline, and patience.

In those days, in order to become a Pirco Charter Member, you had to documentnd 70%
winners betting 2 horses within so many 20 race cycles. I did this.
This actually inspired me to pen the poem in Follow Up #2.

I swept the card at Sportmans Park twice and once at Hawthorne.

The hard work means keeping records to find strengths and weaknesses,
and track profiles which give you confidence based on your work.

The discipline means betting for value within your means (comfort level),
and patience means waiting for your strong suite to appear in the races.

whenever there are questions in your mind about any facet of racing, do a 50 or 100 race test. Find out for yourself. No one can answer your questions
but You.

Some of the famous quotes out of the Sartin Method are from Jimmy and
Bob Purdy. When asked how to pick pace lines, Jimmy stated emphatically:

I don't pick pace lines, i pick horses. When asked why he made such large wagers on one-way exactas, Purdy stated : they only run one way, first and second. Doc would respond to this by stating : Bob Purdy's money management plan is 100% of pocket.

The Sartin Methodology changed the way i think about racing and life.
I am grateful.
Bob Cochran

Finally, I learned if you put in the work, you will get the money.

Last edited by Bob Cochran; 08-28-2009 at 05:40 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 08-29-2009, 05:29 PM   #4
For The Lead
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Cochran View Post
This was a question posed at the Sartin Methodology Las Vegas Seminar.
I remember it as if were asked in the present Pace and Cap Forum.

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO GET FROM THE SARTIN METHODOLOGY? or WHAT DO
YOU WANT TO DO WITH IT.?

I never saw so many confused looks within a large group, in my entire life.

AND THEN CAME THE QUESTION, WHAT ARE YOU WILLING TO DO TOWARD THAT END?

I would like to pose the same question to all visiting the Forum. Simply state your thoughts and opinions for all to read. It might produce different
perspectives than most originally held. It might also give direction to those
who have no answers or opinions regarding the Questions.

This is a good reality check .
Please participate, there is no right or wrong answers to the questions.

Bob Cochran
Thanks Bob, this is a good idea.
I have been at this game for about 44 years and I took a big interest in it from the start. I constantly read whatever I could get my hands on. At some point early on I bought a Kelco Calculator, which I later learned from Tom Brohamer, that is how he started. Many years later, someone I knew suggested the Sartin Methodology to me. I felt I was already a fairly accomplished handicapper, but the reason I had reached that point was because I was always open to new ideas. I was always willing to take something from this and something from that, with the idea of putting the various pieces of the puzzle together.
It turns out that a seminar was coming up at Saratoga, so I made the necessary arrangements for my wife and I to attend. We decided we would spend a couple of days at her brothers’ house prior to driving up to Saratoga. Understand, this just wasn’t a trip to visit with her brother. No Sir. He lived a stone’s throw from Garden State Park (the re-built version), which was the real objective in the first place. Just a side note here, I was at the old Garden State Park the day it burned to the ground, third floor grandstand. Anyway, Garden State was running 10 race cards at the time. In the two nights we went to the track prior to leaving for Saratoga, I hit 19 out of 20 races and that was betting ONE horse. The race I lost was by a nose. Frankly, I saw no reason to go to Saratoga. What for? But, the whole thing was already planned and paid for, so off we went.
I think the fact that I am here writing this speaks volumes about that weekend seminar and what I came away from it with. Today, I do not use any of the Sartin software per se, although I have Energy, Kgen, Thoromation and etc. I work from my own programs and database, which has grown to over 4,000,000 horses over the last 12+ years and you can be sure that those programs and that database is filled with Sartin material along with other things I have developed over the years.
So let me take the questions you posed, one at a time.
What do you want to get from the Sartin Methodology? I wanted to get anything I found useful in order to build on that which I already had.
What do you want to do with it? Improve on the ability I already had. Learn something I didn’t already know.
What are you willing to do to that end? Whatever is needed.
I agree with you Bob, horse racing is not a get rich quick scheme, it is a hard job. You must do the work. Only then will you reap the rewards. Fortunately, it is a labor of love.
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Old 08-29-2009, 07:38 PM   #5
Tim Y
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The methodology does NOT work universally. The trick is finding where it WORKS FOR YOU and leaving the other tracks alone...period.
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Old 08-30-2009, 12:34 AM   #6
pktruckdriver
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This I could not pass up, and give it an honest try.

It seems that you all knew Horward and Jim, well I did not have that priviledge, but wished I did, they were 1st Class people, 110% ...

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO GET FROM THE SARTIN METHODOLOGY? or WHAT DO
YOU WANT TO DO WITH IT.?

I never saw so many confused looks within a large group, in my entire life.




1. I would like to learn about the Pace of the Race, and know without doubt how the race will run, The entire race and be right 80 % or better each time, mind you this does not include having the winner, but knowing how the race set up ----let me explain

#1 and #3 have an early speed duel

#2 , #4, #5 kinda rate behind these speedster's, getting ready to pounce
( see learning which one can pounce in this race is still being learned)

#6 and #7 do not belong in this race and there pace keeps them out of the way of everyone and die early on or half way

# 8 and maybe #9 these are the closers waiting for the fast pace to clean up and power home after the speed falters
(Now learning to spot if any one of theses horses can actually win is very hard to assume/guess and act appropriately)

My desire here on this site, using RDSS is to master these scenario's, and know with out doubt how a race will play out, of course I will still be wrong often enough, but right most of time, and do it with ease, as they say just scanning the race.

I want to be able to use RDSS to help show me the Lone Speed Horse that will run, Wire to Wire , because no one in this race will challenge him, or I want to know what horses will be in position at the appropriate calls to take advantage and have the possibility to win the race, due to the pace of the race, and my knowing it well enough to see minutes after looking at a race.

Will I accomplish this, Yes I think so, the tools are here for me to do this, there are people here are doing it, and it really is not that hard to do with the right tools and right people to help you, am I right, of course.

AND THEN CAME THE QUESTION, WHAT ARE YOU WILLING TO DO TOWARD THAT END?

Tough question, Yes it is, really to answer honestly, you must change your entire life to become a winner, your thinking, your personality, your actions, they must all change to become the people Doc and Jim were. Why , because they were special people who were in tuned with themselves and were winners in life as well as the Horses, and we must become the same way, we must overcome the obstacles in our life's to become better horse player, we must learn to teach and learn , not always learn and teach, give freely of your knowledge, but know when to share and when to encourage.

I read a bit about the Group of people associated with Sartin Methodology, and 1 word always comes up CLASS, a word not easily given out, but is the highest praise one can give, a class act, well not everyone says we're classy, but most do, nothing disparaging ever about Doc or Jim, or the others associated here, the People I know , Ted , Barb, Richie and Bill , and all the others too, wonderful people who all have that class flowing freely from them, class act's all of them.

Part of this group is becoming a better person, a person of class, a winner in life and also the ponies too, as it is possible., to only become a better horse player from Sartin's teachings, but in learning them ,it is very hard not to become a better person if done right, done the way it is taught to us, and that takes a sacrafice to change from your old stubborn ways and become a different person, and for older people it is harder maybe, being stubborn in their ways, or learning a certain method and not willing to forget and begin anew, wiping out the mind and starting all over, I think Barb is an example of a fresh mind starting Sartin's Methodology with no pre-concieved methods in place and has just blossomed into a wonderful handicapper, ask those who know her, as I only read about her exploits with awe, and then there are most of us, like myself, who come here with our ways from the past, speed handicappers, class handicappers, and so forth, and will always think the fastest horse will win the race, or the classiest horse should always win, but be willing to let your old ways be put aside and learn the Sartin Way takes great desire and dedication to succeed, and lots of practice and record keeping and teaching and reading and a few other things that I do not think I have been privy to yet, as I must earn the right 1st, as desire and passion are okay, but actions and great results are all things that must be done to become a winner here.

Can I change at 46 yrs of who I am, at my mid-life point , why not, the last 46 were not the best, the best is ahead, and I am with the people who can make the next 46yrs great, no doubt there, so yes I think I can change and must change to become a winner. One step at a time, and a few runs in there too and a jump now and then, but change will come to me , as I welcome it, knowing it is what I need to become a happier person in life, and better human being, and smarter , more informed horse player, one without doubt, that is a big statement, one without doubt, as doubt make you 2nd guess yourself, and Doc said listen to you, not doubt yourself, but trust yourself and watch what happens....I am tired and could on, but hope I did not stray too far from Bob's original request...if so sorry.


Hope this is what you wanted Bob, as it is a great question we must ask ourselves , and see if this is where we need to be, and for some it is not, but for me I see no other place I'd rather be, among the classiest people in horse racing , The Sartinist's, my new family


Patrick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyYZUhSeRYc

Last edited by pktruckdriver; 08-30-2009 at 12:41 AM.
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Old 08-30-2009, 08:29 AM   #7
barb craven
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Well Bob Cochran, this should be very interesting by the time it is finished - to see all the different perspectives.

I think, in the beginning this was an exercise for me posed by Ted – to see if someone my age with no previous experience could use RDSS and the Methodology and be successful. It turned out to become a whole new way of life for me.

Ted and I would spend one night a week and hook up our computers while he explained each facet of the program and how to use it, and then the psychology of how to wager. The more I did, the more questions I had. For a while I was winning a good percentage of the time, and then came the crash and I lost my bankrole twice. I needed more. Ted was trying to finish the program, and I didn’t want to slow him down with all my questions, although I knew he would take from himself all the time I needed.

I found another who was glad to take up the task – Richie P. He in turn spent hours. First doing races together and explaining how to pick the right pace lines, and then letting me pick the lines and guiding me when I went too far back, or used the wrong lines. Then we went to getting rid of the horses who couldn’t win the race down to the last five. Then he would say look more closely at those horses and make sure they are the right ones and I would go over them to see if they fit today’s race. And then I would let the program tell me who should win.

That’s it, he would say. That part is now done and closed. Now you wait for the odds and see who will give you the best value. DON’T GO BACK AND SECOND GUESS YOURSELF. YOUR FIRST INSTINCT IS THE ONE YOU WANT TO STICK WITH. FROM NOW ON IT’S RISK VERSUS REWARD. Look at the odds, and wait. I’ve been sending him 20 race cycles before the race runs in lieu of putting down real money until I get my confidence and ROI up to a decent point.

What I’m saying by including the above paragraphs, is that these two are living the Sartin Methodology. They will help anyone any time. All you have to do is ask.

As for myself I wish I had been there in the old times, at the workshops and seminars, but I wasn’t, so I go with what I have, which, to me, is just as good, or even better because they have taken what Doc Sartin and Jim Bradshaw gave and expanded on it into modern times and conditions. But maybe we can create a new, circle. I think we already have it started. Your asking these questions Bob is a beginning.

What do I want to do with it? I want to keep expanding my mind and knowledge and learn to win more consistently. My mind is open to anything and I find the the whole concept extremely exciting. You have no idea how much I learned from my week in Saratoga. To be totally immersed in racing and handicapping for all that time and be considered one of the gang. It let me have confidence in my own readouts. To be able to discuss and argue points of difference and come out on top some of the time was very heady. Everyone was generous with their time an expertise. Best of all was that I had the excitement of betting real money again and some of the time, being able to go to the window and cash in my bets. You have no idea……


Third question – I will do whatever it takes that is in my power to become a consistent winner. Increase my record keeping, build more models, do more races. Know that I have to stay within my tracks and get to know them more thoroughly and not go jumping into the unknown . But most of all – have fun doing it. When it ceases to be fun, I will stop.
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Old 08-30-2009, 12:17 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Y View Post
The methodology does NOT work universally.
I am assuming that what you meant by this statement is;
If you are playing, as an example, PHA and keeping records as they should be kept, you cannot take the results of this record keeping and apply them to, as an example, KEE.

That in order to play KEE, you would have to establish, via record keeping, the necessary data to allow you to successfully play KEE, which in all likely hood would be considerably different from PHA.

And this same process would be required for any track that you wish to play.

Is this correct?
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Old 08-30-2009, 02:40 PM   #9
Bob Cochran
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Ftl

absolutely correct. each track seems to have it's individual energy requirements
ie; track surface, track conformation, number of racing days, and also the quality of horses.

Lastly, the most predictive profiles compiled are usually the contingent of
the largest number of certain type runners stabled at the track.

The fewer number of race distances offered by a track, the tighter your track
models will be.

BobC:
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Old 08-30-2009, 04:13 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Cochran View Post
absolutely correct. each track seems to have it's individual energy requirements
ie; track surface, track conformation, number of racing days, and also the quality of horses.

Lastly, the most predictive profiles compiled are usually the contingent of
the largest number of certain type runners stabled at the track.

The fewer number of race distances offered by a track, the tighter your track
models will be.

BobC:
Bob,
I agree 100%. And for all those reasons you mentioned and more, that is why I play only tracks with long meets, such as MNR,PHA,PEN,DEL for examples.

I keep models that are broken down not just by distance, but by surface, sex and race restriction for winners. I do the same thing with maidens, except there are no race restrictions so I use MC and MSW.

Because this is the way I keep models, tracks with short meets such as SAR, DMR, KEE and CD for examples are not on my list of tracks to play. At just about the time I have gathered enough information for it to have some meaning, the meet is over.

It is for the same reasons that I do not bother with TURF racing. Turf races are only run during the summer months in most parts of the country and there are only a couple of races carded each day. In addition, I don’t want to be bothered with fields that include “turfers” that haven’t run since last season, first time “turfers” and European horses coming to this country for the first time. So again, I just don’t bother with them. With all the racing there is on a year around basis, I certainly don’t need to complicate things anymore than they already are.

I’m sure you can imagine that these “artificial” surfaced tracks are also not high on my list. As far as I am concerned, these tracks have done nothing except “muddy up the water”. At this point, I am doing the best I can with these surfaces until I make a determination as to how I should best deal with them.

In the end, for me, it is just so much easier to stick with dirt racing and long meets.
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