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Old 07-31-2011, 12:55 PM   #11
mikesal57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmath View Post
i agree mike, i know about the workshop and would like to see if there are any improvements, but i just recently paid for new pace and do not want to pay for the improvements either. To my thinking this would be something like selling my car and then telling you the keys will cost you an extra 500.00.
lmao
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Old 07-31-2011, 02:45 PM   #12
SilentRun
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New Pace Update

I also received an email offering an excellent discount for his New Pace update.

My response to him was that he should not charge for these updates since a number of people have already purchased "New Pace" and some, I believe,have also purchased "Improve/Decline" and "BOW".
He also has access to and will continue to have access to the research stats published by our members....results of boxing the 4 New Pace contenders to name one.

I requested that the updates should be made available (no charge) as a courtesy to those members who have already purchased his product(s).

Ernie
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Old 07-31-2011, 03:22 PM   #13
Dave Schwartz
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Ernie,

I must disagree.

Purchase of a product does not entitle you to all future developments for that product. If that were the case, what would be the incentive to continue development?

Just so you know, I (and my team) have roughly 100 hours in the improvements that are being shared, as well as another 9 hours in the development of this particular workshop.

My customers and clients are usually thrilled to pay the small amounts of money charged to ensure that they are on the cutting edge. I hope you can see your way clear to view it from that standpoint. BTW, there IS an Improve/Decline workshop coming as soon as I can quantify the advancements into an updated strategy. (That is still several months away, I believe.)


The almost unanimous feedback I have received from people regarding NewPace, as well as the other products I produce, is that the products are being thoroughly used and enjoyed. The feedback also indicates that these products are considered "good value" for the dollars spent.

People in our industry - that would be the horse handicapping world - are clamoring for good materials. In order for such products to continue being produced, there must be a reasonable financial reward for producing such materials. "Free" will simply not work as a business model.

That said, consider just how much really good information we do put out for free. Next Wednesday will be episode 3 of our Handicapping Live TV cyber show. This show is about The Monty Hall Problem. On that show I will offer up a way to concentrate 2/3 of your winners into 1/3 of your contenders. Free. Did I mention it is completely FREE?

I am trying to raise the bar to a high level and keep it high. We are not some "system mill" cranking out products that come with "get rich quick" claims. We are providing serious, deep research behind the products that go out.

The bottom line for all this is that we live in financial times that are difficult for many (most?) of us. We are trying to offer good value at the lowest possible cost while still justifying being in this industry and producing these materials.

I hope you can see that money spent with us supports that on-going effort and results in everyone getting more and better materials to improve their game.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz
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Old 07-31-2011, 03:49 PM   #14
Dave Schwartz
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The workshop is $114, but its not for new users ....so who else is going to attend but registered users and we get a discount
Come on Dave ..Give us a break!!
Perhaps I can clarify this a little better... I certainly tried in the product description.

The $114 price INCLUDES the NewPace video seminar, which is (basically) an all-day seminar.

The update workshop is $27. Period.

Quote:
To my thinking this would be something like selling my car and then telling you the keys will cost you an extra 500.00.
I think a better analogy would be, "You buy a car, and the company says, 'How would you like to add some more horsepower?"



Quote:
Will he show us better results ?
maybe a chart on bets and ROI and not say it just works
And when I show you the results that we get when using HSH, would you expect that the results would be the same in RDSS?



You know, I did not realize there was so much negative feedback coming from this.

In the future I will reconsider any advanced workshops. Obviously, I have misunderstood the customer base.
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Old 07-31-2011, 03:51 PM   #15
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I have no objection to Dave charging for this update seminar,he does have to put in hours to get it together so why shouldnt he be compensated for it.
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Old 07-31-2011, 04:01 PM   #16
Dave Schwartz
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RDSS/NewPace users are a significant percentage of our users. If the feedback from the RDSS community is this negative, I will consider canceling this seminar.

I learned the hard way that not listening to customers does not work out well in the long run.

So, easy enough:

Does anyone have positive opinions of this or is general opinion "Workshops should be free or there shouldn't be any workshops?"

I value your feedback, either way.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz
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Old 07-31-2011, 04:17 PM   #17
SilentRun
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Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz View Post
Ernie,


The bottom line for all this is that we live in financial times that are difficult for many (most?) of us. We are trying to offer good value at the lowest possible cost while still justifying being in this industry and producing these materials.

I hope you can see that money spent with us supports that on-going effort and results in everyone getting more and better materials to improve their game.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz
OK...I understand your viewpoint and I agree you present quality products.

Regards,

Ernie
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Old 07-31-2011, 06:19 PM   #18
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Jeff and Ernie


can you post your positive results for us?

mike
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Old 07-31-2011, 06:45 PM   #19
Dave Schwartz
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Short follow up:

I have received several very positive emails from people regarding the posts in this thread. I am going to assume that this falls into the category of "you can't please everyone" and go on in the manner of "business as usual."

I truly care about what our customers think so please DO share your opinions with me either publicly or privately. (I care about non-customers' opinions as well, but everyone in THIS thread is, logically, a customer of ours.)

Seriously, do not miss signing up for next Wednesday's show.
Show 3: The Monty Hall Problem
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Old 07-31-2011, 07:21 PM   #20
Ted Craven
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I just got back from the lake (and never had so many emails and PMs in a 24 hour period)

I have one small advantage, from a business model point-of-view, with RDSS and TrackMaster's data pricing, compared to Dave's approach with his collection of new video seminar-style products.

If I can create a software tool and if we all can foster a support and learning community valuable enough that people keep coming back year after year and paying the annual RDSS subscription (and keep buying TrackMaster data which I get a share of), then I can keep adding new things to RDSS or refine older ideas, and the repeating revenue stream from doing that (and the increasing interest from new folks, and from previous subscribers rejoining) makes it worthwhile to me to keep adding the new stuff and not charge extra for it. It also helps that folks can step in with a very small monthly commitment to TrackMaster data, while they decide if RDSS suits them and while they get up to speed with it and its history.

As I see it, Dave must also maintain a continual revenue stream to stay in business and keep innovating, but he can't re-license Newpace, or Improve/Decline or Basics of Winning, etc year after year. Instead, he must find alternate ways via new products and 'Part 2' of existing products. I'm sure HSH keeps ticking over regularly with HDW data sales and new licenses, but until or unless he publishes new software with a different data price point, a certain percentage of otherwise serious or interested horse players will prefer to purchase the small one-off products and try to implement the ideas themselves manually, via the spreadsheet tools, or via full blown software 'suites' like I am gradually positioning RDSS 2.0 to be.

I take the same view of incremental up-sales to NewPace, Improve/Decline, etc as I do to those who say $100/year and $2 a race card is too much money for RDSS - let the software pay for itself! Iif you can't find enough good ideas, and good hits from $77 for NewPace or $27 for NewPace Redux - whether or not you could also arrive at the same wagers by existing RDSS tools - well, I suggest you aren't trying hard enough, because the results certainly seem to be there, at least in the short run so far. I dare say you can get lots of hits from standard and proper implementation of the modern Sartin Methodology according to Doc's guidelines (yes, even 10-15 year old guidelines!) that you won't get from NewPace with its sometimes 'brute-force' approach. But at the same time you'll get a goodly number of hits from paying attention to and betting consistently the NewPace contenders that you would have to zig and zag through RDSS to attempt to capture. NewPace is a methodology which takes one type of path through the bewildering thicket of alternative analysis available - and RDSS takes another sometimes converging, sometimes diverging path through the same analysis if you make it your own and apply your method consistently. This has been true for what is largely a similar approach to the modern Methodology Doc Sartin evolved, for over 15 years now, so I know this is profitable. NewPace is in its early days and must still prove itself, and I am only privy to studies people are starting to post online here, some of them not real-time and back-fitted.

But how valuable is one good idea to you? Now that we are starting to get some software tools to study this with (that is, other than Dave's HSH software, which I know people are indeed doing lots of studies with) - if anyone who bought NewPace on faith or on Dave's salesmanship is having trouble implementing it or finding a profitable way to bet it, well that's why we have the NewPace Discussion forum, and the input of the author. We can grill it, make it prove itself. My programming may be at fault sometimes, or TrackMaster or our other Speed Ratings and variants may produce different results to HDW or BRIS or DRF data - and I am not shy to accept responsability for my mistakes or lack of understanding of Daves instructions - and I look forward to his critiques - but I say let him make money from his creative effort. Everyone who has the time and diligence should be able to go out and make as much money as Dave does by betting his ideas. And if the smart people here can't do that, and their documented failed attempts survive a peer review, then NewPace will not have succeeded and I think Dave (and a number of others) will be quite surprised. As will I.

The real interesting thing I am looking forward to (and since the very beginning when I grasped the NewPace ideas) is folks examining the components of NewPace and cross-mixing the ideas with what they get now from the Methodology and the Matchup tools. I have seen half a dozen different approaches to this in the past few months, not all public yet, since up until this weekend only 5 or 6 peeple have been even able to do that. Stay tuned for some interesting ideas and I suspect many more longitudinal studies as the initial 50 or so Beta testers start to report back.

BTW, I made back many times my price for NewPace, after I had programmed it initially in RDSS2, the first week I took it for a spin with real money, bugs and all. And Beth Schwartz told me Friday that I was the first one to sign up for the NewPace follow up seminar.

Also, FWIW, I don't make any money on NewPace from Dave nor does Dave from RDSS. As I mentioned at the top, my aim is to add value to the fantastic set of tools Doc originated, within a consistent philosophical framework: call it Pace if you must (I don't like to), call it the Matchup of Early versus Late. And then have people use (and pay ongoing for) the tools for years - but only if they carry their weight. That's fair, and a synergy I think can work. I'd like to think Doc would have contemplated such a collaboration.

Cheers,

Ted
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