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Old 09-23-2023, 01:16 PM   #1
Data_Cap
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Pace Ratings Published by Brisnet

Hello, this is my first post here. I've read a lot of the posts in this forum and was not able to find a definite answer to my question. I also called Brisnet but the folks from Brisnet Player Services I spoke with didn't seem to know either. So I was hoping someone here might be able to help.

I'd like to know what the Brisnet E2 Pace Rating is measuring in races at the 5 ½ furlong distance. Specifically, is it the 2nd call, the 3/8th mark in a 5 1/2 furlong race? Or is it the 4-furlong mark that Brisnet states E2 measures for all sprint races?

The wording at Brisnet's Handicapper’s Library only adds to the ambiguity. Under the BRISnet Pace Ratings FAQ.

Here is what it states the section: WHAT DO THE BRISNET PACE RATINGS MEASURE?

Brisnet Pace Ratings measure how fast a horse ran up to a specific point-of-call in a race. The higher the number, the faster the horse ran.

2f Pace Rating – rates how fast the horse ran from the start to the quarter-mile call. (2f)

4f Pace Rating – rates how fast the horse ran from the start to the half-mile call. (4f)

6f Pace Rating – rates how fast the horse ran from the start to the three-quarter mile call. (6f)

E1 Pace Rating – rates how fast the horse ran from the start to the 1st call (2f Pace in sprints, 4f Pace in most routes).

E2 Pace Rating – rates how fast the horse ran from the start to the 2nd call (4f Pace in sprints, 6f Pace in most routes).

Late Pace Rating – rates how fast the horse ran from the 2nd call (pre-stretch call) to the finish.


The confusion comes from the fact that they only show and describe a: 2f, 4f and 6f Pace Rating. There is no 3f pace rating described.

Further, the wording describing E2 states "in most routes" but it doesn't state that for sprints. Indicating to me that E2 is at 4f for all sprint races.

Also, it doesn't seem to make sense that E2 would be at the 3/8 mark when E1 is at the 2f mark.

One thing is for sure. There are three pace ratings Brisnet publishes for a 5 1/2 furlong race; E1, E2 and LP. And it is pretty clear that E1 is measuring how fast a horse ran from the start to 1st call, which is the 1/4 mark in a 5 1/2-f race. So that means either one of two scenarios for E2 and LP.

1.) E2 is from the start to 3/8 mark (the 2nd call at 5.5f) which would mean the LP Pace Rating is measuring the final 5/16 or 2 1/2 furlongs (3/8 mark to the finish).

2.) E2 is from the start to 4f mark (like it is for all the other sprint races that have an E2 pace rating) which would mean LP Pace Rating is measuring the final 3/16 or 1 1/2 furlongs (4/8 to finish).

Scenario # 2 seems to be more practical because it would be more consistent with the other sprint races as 2 of the three ratings (E1 and E2) would be identical to the other sprint races. But I can't seem to find a definite answer.

So does anyone know if the Brisnet E2 Pace rating measure from the start to the 4f mark, or from the start to the 3/8 mark in a 5 ½ furlong race?

Thank you,

Jeff
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Old 09-30-2023, 09:18 AM   #2
omar
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If you’re new to this game or not, but sounds like you are, don’t rack your brains about trying to be precise with a game that’s anything but. Ever since the powers to be made 1/5=1 length, they new it was only an incorrect approximation but they used it only for convenience because they didn’t have to deal with decimal points. If the guy at Bris didn’t know it makes you wonder how good their numbers are, really. 500 years ago everybody thought the world was flat and that we were the center of the universe. We now know how that turned out. Just because everyone thinks the same doesn’t make it “right”. With the advent of computers, players should be more precise but they stuck with the old garbage in, garbage out. And with a game that always had a crooked stigma attached to it, well there you go.
You might want to read some of my posts on dd/exacta charting and get inside my head. Don’t forget the Alka Seltzer.
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Old 09-30-2023, 02:00 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Data_Cap View Post
Here is what it states the section: WHAT DO THE BRISNET PACE RATINGS MEASURE?

Brisnet Pace Ratings measure how fast a horse ran up to a specific point-of-call in a race. The higher the number, the faster the horse ran.

2f Pace Rating – rates how fast the horse ran from the start to the quarter-mile call. (2f)

4f Pace Rating – rates how fast the horse ran from the start to the half-mile call. (4f)

6f Pace Rating – rates how fast the horse ran from the start to the three-quarter mile call. (6f)

E1 Pace Rating – rates how fast the horse ran from the start to the 1st call (2f Pace in sprints, 4f Pace in most routes).

E2 Pace Rating – rates how fast the horse ran from the start to the 2nd call (4f Pace in sprints, 6f Pace in most routes).

Late Pace Rating – rates how fast the horse ran from the 2nd call (pre-stretch call) to the finish.


The confusion comes from the fact that they only show and describe a: 2f, 4f and 6f Pace Rating. There is no 3f pace rating described.

Further, the wording describing E2 states "in most routes" but it doesn't state that for sprints. Indicating to me that E2 is at 4f for all sprint races.

Also, it doesn't seem to make sense that E2 would be at the 3/8 mark when E1 is at the 2f mark.

One thing is for sure. There are three pace ratings Brisnet publishes for a 5 1/2 furlong race; E1, E2 and LP. And it is pretty clear that E1 is measuring how fast a horse ran from the start to 1st call, which is the 1/4 mark in a 5 1/2-f race. So that means either one of two scenarios for E2 and LP.

1.) E2 is from the start to 3/8 mark (the 2nd call at 5.5f) which would mean the LP Pace Rating is measuring the final 5/16 or 2 1/2 furlongs (3/8 mark to the finish).

2.) E2 is from the start to 4f mark (like it is for all the other sprint races that have an E2 pace rating) which would mean LP Pace Rating is measuring the final 3/16 or 1 1/2 furlongs (4/8 to finish).

Scenario # 2 seems to be more practical because it would be more consistent with the other sprint races as 2 of the three ratings (E1 and E2) would be identical to the other sprint races. But I can't seem to find a definite answer.

So does anyone know if the Brisnet E2 Pace rating measure from the start to the 4f mark, or from the start to the 3/8 mark in a 5 ½ furlong race?

Thank you,

Jeff


If you can find PPs where two runners came from the same 5.5 furlong event
who are multiple lengths apart after the 1st 3 and 4 furlongs
you may get lucky and find your answer there.

Unfortunately the lengths beaten at the 2nd and 3rd call may be similar
in most cases, so I hope you won't have to do too much digging.

Brisnet should be better at explaining this without us
having to chase them for this answer.

Good luck,
Mike
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Old 09-30-2023, 02:33 PM   #4
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I have found that it is best to avoid using 5f lines unless you have no other choice. They just are not comparable with most sprint dists.
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Old 10-01-2023, 10:44 PM   #5
Data_Cap
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Originally Posted by Lt1 View Post
I have found that it is best to avoid using 5f lines unless you have no other choice. They just are not comparable with most sprint dists.
Tim
Yes, I agree. I don't use 5f lines, and for the most part, they're unusable for what I want due to the fact that Brisnet does not publish an E1 Pace rating for races at 5f or less.
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