Pace and Cap - Sartin Methodology & The Match Up

Pace and Cap - Sartin Methodology & The Match Up (http://paceandcap.com/forums/index.php)

- Sartin Methodology Handicapping 101 (102 ...) (http://paceandcap.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=116)

- - Pace class? (http://paceandcap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13859)

I was playing around with some old software Yesterday and one of the factors rated was what they called “pace class” or pc on the printouts. In the software guide it simply said “pace class” as sartin methodilogy used. Is anyone familiar with this rating? The software I was using was pace plus evaluator. It’s pretty old software I haven’t used in quite a while and I was just messing around with it. But I really like to know Where that rating is coming from. If anyone’s familiar with the pace class term/rating please explain. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks eric

Welcome Eric! Was the old software ('Pace Plus Evaluator') a product of Sartin (aka Inland Empire, O Henry House, Sartin Methodology Inc depending on the circa) OR was it some other parties' knock off 'in the style of Sartin'.

If the latter, they could refer to anything! They could be taking Sartin's early assertion that PACE = CLASS = SPEED and 'branding' some kind of pace+whatnot as 'pace class' a la Sartin.

If it was an early Sartin product, it could simply be some kind of pace-call (2nd call) measurement of velocity turned to a rank or 'magical number' equivalent. Or 2nd call + 2nd fraction, just guessing. If your software requires entry of info from the 'money box' (race frequency, earnings, in-the-money ratio, etc), then your mystery pace-class fig could be some pace velocity modified by an earnings/frequency class measure. If there is no such 'money box' info in your input, my guess is it is simply some kind of pace-related info.

RDSS has numerous Pace AND Class related info (Class as derived from Average Purse Value, ITM consistency, Earnings per Start and also a weighted final odds formula from recent races).

You could propose a race or races for someone to put up some pace/class/BL or Rx oddsline readouts from in RDSS and see how they compare to your readout. RDSS may be as effective (and likely better ;)).

If it's not a Sartin product, well anything goes! Sartin's name has been 'borrowed' to sell many ideas over the years.

Again, welcome to the forum, and good luck. (Consider using the Google Site Search tool on the site menu bar for various research).

Ted

So the software is pace plus evaluator. I think I bought it close to 10 years ago. So I figured I’d dust it off and give it another try. I don’t think I loved it when I first purchased it but sometimes I’ll go back to old software years later and find something useful I missed the first time around. It’s definitely not a sartin program just basic velocity based ratings..tpr, sp, ap, fx,etc. and a few form factors along with some secret proprietary ratings. The so-called proprietary ratings drive me nuts because literally in the manual they have no description. How am I supposed to use a rating when I have no idea what it’s even based on. I have never tried rdss or any of the older sartin programs. I have used pace programs like HTR, htrf, and multi caps. Rdss looked fairly complicated so that has scared me off a bit but I saw
your offering 6 month subscription now. So that’s got me thinking Maybe I’ll put some time in with all your reference materials,videos and give it a whirl for 6 mo. I’ve certainly debated on trying RDSS for awhile now. Maybe it’s time!!

Sounds like a plan Eric! I got you set up and sent you a few emails.

Good luck and good skill (as Doc used to say) in your research.

(Hint: check out the Selections Forum - there's some real pros posting there ... ;)).

Ted

I believe PC pace class is F1 + F2/2 + SP = Pace Class.

Thanks. that’s what I was looking for...

More accurately would be EP + SP. Go to the FPS screen and add those two together and you’ll see the same calculation under PC.

I referred someone to this older discussion the other day on the equivalences between Brohamer's MPH (Modern pace Handicapping) factors and what we use today in RDSS. Seems germane to this discussion.

http://paceandcap.com/forums/showpos...67&postcount=2

Quote:

Per Brohamer (per the Sartin Methodology Phase III, circa early 1990's):

Average Pace in sprints = the average of all 3 fractions. Whether you average factors [(F1+F2+F3) / 3] or simply sum them [F1+F2+F3] - you get the same information when you rank them or measure gaps between them. Total Energy (in RDSS) = F1+F2+F3, thus AP in sprints = Total Energy.

Average Pace in routes = (EP + SP) / 2 or (1/2 EP + 1/2 SP)

Early Pace = EP = velocity to the 2nd Call. In RDSS, either 2nd call velocity (SC) or EPR = velocity to the 2nd Call.

Sustained Pace = SP = (EP+F3) / 2 or (1/2 EP plus 1/2 F3)

So restating Average Pace in routes: (1/2 EP) plus (1/2 EP plus 1/2 F3) or 1x EP plus 1/2 F3

In RDSS we have no factor which is 1 times Second call velocity (SC or EPR or EP) plus half of F3. Instead, we have 1x EPR plus 1x LPR (F3) = CPR (or TPR, if you prefer). Thus, CPR has more F3 in it than AP for routes (1x F3 versus 1/2 x F3)

Thus, in RDSS:

Total Energy = Average Pace in Sprints
CPR ~= Average Pace (AP) in routes (a bit more F3)

If AP = FW in Phase III (MPH), it became more nuanced later. In RDSS, FW in sprints = (2x EPR)+LPR. In routes, FW = EPR + (2x LPR).

The MPH FactorX (F1+F3) / 2 = RDSS FX = F1+F3 (same thing)
The MPH Turn Time (TT) = RDSS TT = F2 velocity
%Early EP/(EP+SP) evolved to %Median or (F1+F2) / (F1+F2+F3)

Hidden Energy is not given in MPH, but it is (roughly) F2+F3 = HID (in later Sartin DOS programs and in RDSS).

So that's the map between Modern Pace Handicapping (Sartin Phase III) factors and their equivalents in RDSS (and Speculator, Validator, Synthesis and other programs). RDSS factors other than these evolved since MPH times, covered in many Follow Ups (or by subsequent discussion here). MPH described factors are based on FPS velocity calculations, whereas in Pace makes the Race, EPR, LPR, TPR (or CPR) the calculations are based on a points based difference from a set of par times by distance - but they amount to fundamentally the same measurements.

Of course, in later software (and RDSS) all running times (and velocities and points-based factors) are adjusted by a Daily Track Variant, an Inter-Track variant (DTV and ITV supplied by TrackMaster), a distance equalization to today's distance and a surface equalization factor (calculated internally).

Quote:

This is part of a larger discussion on the same topic, here: http://paceandcap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8979

So - in my view, the older Sustained Pace (SP) equals TPR in RDSS (2nd Call + 3rd Fraction), whether you divide by 2, or multiply by 2 (or by 3.14159 or whatever) - if you do that for all horses, the relative ranks are the same.