Big Red Tribute - Page 2 - Pace and Cap

Tim Y · 03-12-2009, 12:41 PM

Long time turf analyst Charles Hatton in the 1974 American Racing Manual:" Secretariat was a super horse rather than horse of the year, VETERAN turfmen, sophisticates of DEEP experience and broad , informed tastes (those who have been around long enough to have seen the contenders and the pretenders), pronounced him HORSE OF THE CENTURY."

People on the INSIDE, not folks who are "at arms length" surrogates and think they know racing, all agree.

Charlie D · 03-12-2009, 12:50 PM

How can you pronouce Secretariat, the HORSE OF THE CENTURY, when the horse never faced horses of the ability of a Sea Bird, a Dancing Brave, a Mill Reef, a Brigadier Gerard etc, etc, etc

How can you pronouce Sea Bird the GREATEST, when he never faced horses of the ability of a Secretariat, a Ghostzapper, a Shergar etc, etc, etc

The accolade is meaningless except in the mind of those assinging the tag

Tim Y · 03-12-2009, 12:55 PM

***** you left out Ribot, Brigadier Gerard, Nashwan Nijinsky, The Minstrel, Saddler's Wells. and a host of others.

Sitting in front of a computer is not the same and living and understanding historical and international perspective.

I wore a shirt to the 1986 Breeder's Cup TURF announcing that Dancing Brave would NOT adapt to Santa Anita. Buy a copy of Perry Lefkio's great book The Breeder's Cup the Greatest Day on Turf and turn to page 178 to read all about it. I loved listening to the pinhead Pat Eddery tell eveyone how great this one was when it was a simple matter that the animal needed a long run to the line and on that course there was only 900 feet and the idiot rode the colt the same way he tried to run that long broad uphill stretch in Paris. I loved to root against him he was so clueless in his North American rides unlike Freddie Head or many other good ones who learned to adapt to the changing course layouts.

Charlie D · 03-12-2009, 01:07 PM

It *** learn

Good Horse A has to beat good horse A, B, C and D to be assinged the accolade of Greatness, THE HORSE OF THE CENTURY or whatever

The same thing happens in Euroland all the time, we get - Arkle is the best Chaser ever

The people stating this don't know if that is correct , as he never faced a Desert Orchid, a Moscow Flyer, a Kauto Star etc, etc

The Great, best tag only exists in thier mind and not in actual reality

Ted Craven · 03-12-2009, 01:10 PM

This is a great topic. Watching Secretariat's videos always sends shivers down me.

However, subsequent posts by EVERYONE, must remain civil.

Ted

Tim Y · 03-12-2009, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie D

The same thing happens in Euroland all the time, we get - Arkle is the best Chaser ever

The people stating this don't know if that is correct , as he never faced a Desert Orchid, a Moscow Flyer, a Kauto Star etc, etc

Red Rum and Desert Orchid would probably lay claim to that accolade on par with Arkle in 1965-66 at Cheltenham. One does not win the Grand National three times and not have that mantle bestowed upon them.

Charlie D · 03-12-2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Y

Red Rum and Desert Orchid would probably lay claim to that accolade on par with Arkle in 1965-66 at Cheltenham. One does not win the Grand National three times and not have that mantle bestowed upon them.

Red Rum winning National x 3 is a very good achievement, but it does not mean Red Rum was the GREATEST Chaser, just like Secretariat, Sea Bird winning thier respective races does not mean they are the Greatest, Horse of the Century etc, etc

The accolades only exist in the mind of the person assigning them and not in actual reality

Ted Craven · 03-12-2009, 01:23 PM

Tim,

Welcome back.

Do not be confused. I will NOT let you and Charlie natter at each other and hijack this thread. If you wish to continue in the original vein, either one of you, do it in Private Messages to each other. Not here.

Thanks.

Ted

Tim Y · 03-12-2009, 01:27 PM

Talk to twenty experts in thoroughbred history.

I will wager at least 18 if not 19 of that 20, people who know horse racing from Eclipse onward, would rank Red in the top three of all time. Dirt, short long, on the pace, from the clouds, turf (first time on the lawn against the then reigning grass champion, he put that one away and broke the track record)

While it is fun to be different, when there is that much evidence from that many reputable sources, it is difficult to make any rational argument, based upon the logic and facts available, to mount against that point of view.

If there could be any argument against this one, was that in close finishes was it just this speed that put them away??? The ONLY rational argument against his greatness was that point of view offered by a horseman I met several years ago in Vancouver and he pointed out that in stretch runs, where the mettle of an animal is really tested, when there was a chance for his to battle late, he backed up a few times Wood, Whitney, Woodward. The only rationale I have ever been offered to weaken his place in history.

Charlie D · 03-12-2009, 01:34 PM

Talk to experts, talk to experts, Timeform are so called experts, they have Sea Bird at Top of thier list

Are they correct in implying Sea Bird is the best, i do not know, you don't know, they don't know, why?? because Sea Bird never faced a Secretariat, a Ghostzapper, a Shergar and so on and so on

Only a race or a series of races where these horses met would tell you who was the Greatest, the Horse of the Century or whatever and i'm afraid that is never going to happen

The accolades exist only in the mind and not in reality

03-12-2009, 12:41 PM	#11
Tim Y turf historian Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 6,455	Long time turf analyst Charles Hatton in the 1974 American Racing Manual:" Secretariat was a super horse rather than horse of the year, VETERAN turfmen, sophisticates of DEEP experience and broad , informed tastes (those who have been around long enough to have seen the contenders and the pretenders), pronounced him HORSE OF THE CENTURY." People on the INSIDE, not folks who are "at arms length" surrogates and think they know racing, all agree. __________________ Albert Einstein:"The monotony and solitude of a quiet life stimulates the creative mind."

03-12-2009, 12:50 PM	#12
Charlie D Match Up Apprentice Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,105	How can you pronouce Secretariat, the HORSE OF THE CENTURY, when the horse never faced horses of the ability of a Sea Bird, a Dancing Brave, a Mill Reef, a Brigadier Gerard etc, etc, etc How can you pronouce Sea Bird the GREATEST, when he never faced horses of the ability of a Secretariat, a Ghostzapper, a Shergar etc, etc, etc The accolade is meaningless except in the mind of those assinging the tag __________________ "To me, The Match Up supercedes everything" Last edited by Charlie D; 03-12-2009 at 12:58 PM.

03-12-2009, 12:55 PM	#13
Tim Y turf historian Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 6,455	***** you left out Ribot, Brigadier Gerard, Nashwan Nijinsky, The Minstrel, Saddler's Wells. and a host of others. Sitting in front of a computer is not the same and living and understanding historical and international perspective. I wore a shirt to the 1986 Breeder's Cup TURF announcing that Dancing Brave would NOT adapt to Santa Anita. Buy a copy of Perry Lefkio's great book The Breeder's Cup the Greatest Day on Turf and turn to page 178 to read all about it. I loved listening to the pinhead Pat Eddery tell eveyone how great this one was when it was a simple matter that the animal needed a long run to the line and on that course there was only 900 feet and the idiot rode the colt the same way he tried to run that long broad uphill stretch in Paris. I loved to root against him he was so clueless in his North American rides unlike Freddie Head or many other good ones who learned to adapt to the changing course layouts. __________________ Albert Einstein:"The monotony and solitude of a quiet life stimulates the creative mind." Last edited by Ted Craven; 03-12-2009 at 01:11 PM. Reason: see above reason

03-12-2009, 01:07 PM	#14
Charlie D Match Up Apprentice Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,105	It *** learn Good Horse A has to beat good horse A, B, C and D to be assinged the accolade of Greatness, THE HORSE OF THE CENTURY or whatever The same thing happens in Euroland all the time, we get - Arkle is the best Chaser ever The people stating this don't know if that is correct , as he never faced a Desert Orchid, a Moscow Flyer, a Kauto Star etc, etc The Great, best tag only exists in thier mind and not in actual reality __________________ "To me, The Match Up supercedes everything" Last edited by Charlie D; 03-12-2009 at 01:14 PM. Reason: back on track, please

03-12-2009, 01:10 PM	#15
Ted Craven Grade 1 Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Nanaimo, British Columbia, Canada Posts: 9,251	This is a great topic. Watching Secretariat's videos always sends shivers down me. However, subsequent posts by EVERYONE, must remain civil. Ted __________________ RDSS - Racing Decision Support System™

03-12-2009, 01:23 PM	#18
Ted Craven Grade 1 Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Nanaimo, British Columbia, Canada Posts: 9,251	Tim, Welcome back. Do not be confused. I will NOT let you and Charlie natter at each other and hijack this thread. If you wish to continue in the original vein, either one of you, do it in Private Messages to each other. Not here. Thanks. Ted __________________ RDSS - Racing Decision Support System™

03-12-2009, 01:27 PM	#19
Tim Y turf historian Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 6,455	Talk to twenty experts in thoroughbred history. I will wager at least 18 if not 19 of that 20, people who know horse racing from Eclipse onward, would rank Red in the top three of all time. Dirt, short long, on the pace, from the clouds, turf (first time on the lawn against the then reigning grass champion, he put that one away and broke the track record) While it is fun to be different, when there is that much evidence from that many reputable sources, it is difficult to make any rational argument, based upon the logic and facts available, to mount against that point of view. If there could be any argument against this one, was that in close finishes was it just this speed that put them away??? The ONLY rational argument against his greatness was that point of view offered by a horseman I met several years ago in Vancouver and he pointed out that in stretch runs, where the mettle of an animal is really tested, when there was a chance for his to battle late, he backed up a few times Wood, Whitney, Woodward. The only rationale I have ever been offered to weaken his place in history. __________________ Albert Einstein:"The monotony and solitude of a quiet life stimulates the creative mind."

03-12-2009, 01:34 PM	#20
Charlie D Match Up Apprentice Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,105	Talk to experts, talk to experts, Timeform are so called experts, they have Sea Bird at Top of thier list Are they correct in implying Sea Bird is the best, i do not know, you don't know, they don't know, why?? because Sea Bird never faced a Secretariat, a Ghostzapper, a Shergar and so on and so on Only a race or a series of races where these horses met would tell you who was the Greatest, the Horse of the Century or whatever and i'm afraid that is never going to happen The accolades exist only in the mind and not in reality __________________ "To me, The Match Up supercedes everything" Last edited by Charlie D; 03-12-2009 at 01:40 PM.