The 'Red-board' Discussion!

[Ted Craven]

I have observed some indisputable truths about horse racing (and other things) over the years:

1. you can't please all the people all of the time

2. 'it is difference of opinion that makes horse races'

If I understand you right Tom (atlasaxis), I don't think you feel that there should be NO post-race analysis, only that you believe that the credibility as a teacher of For The Lead in particular, is diminished by only posting the lessons he does AFTER the race has run.

If I got that right, I thank you for your concern, and suggestions, about how to improve the Teaching aspects of PaceandCap. I know For the Lead is a serious person who for reasons of his own has chosen to share in an articulate manner (good grammar, use of periods and paragraph breaks) and illustrative detail (posts pictures, which equal ~1000 words each). Having done this a few times myself, I know a bit about how much work goes into doing this. I don't know FTL personally, and perhaps he spends much of his time counting his retirement checks or shooting varmints on his ranch and thus has lots of spare time to put into his attempts to help others and is just too lazy or scared to do it ahead of time.

But I suspect, rather, he spends a LOT of time handicapping and betting on horses and doesn't NEED to spend ANY time on a website passing on some of the knowledge he has learned over a lifetime of listening to Sartin teachers and doing his own research, programming and hard work. And possibly doesn't CARE whether anyone thinks he is good at it or not. Perhaps that is one reason why he tries to be efficient in waiting until scratches are known, bet-time odds are known, surface conditions and potential changes are known - before spending his (to him) valuable time putting a few lessons down for posterity. Why do it twice if the point is not bragging, but rather teaching!?

I understand you do not use RDSS (and as you know, I have absolutely no problem with that whatsoever), and possibly also have no need to learn any new lessons about handicapping, compared to some of the rest of us who do (and perhaps this is also the case for the 5 people who wrote you privately).

But getting back to the 'difference of opinion' idea - in my earlier reply to you I was actually referring to the folks who chose to post in public here who expressed that they personally thought the teaching by after the fact examples (aka 'red-boarding') has been very valuable to them, has improved their game, has put dollars in their pocket. I would say that most (not all) of those comments came from RDSS users, which is not surprising given the title of the Forum where FTL was posting 'RDSS ... Teaching and Examples)'. FWIW, I don't know of another horse-racing website where so much detail is expressed in public describing how to use a handicapping software tool, both BEFORE and AFTER the fact (check the 6 months of 'Learn to Win' Contest posts, some of which attempted to teach as well). Perhaps the 'red-boarding' debate is indeed not settled, as you suggest, but it appears that a LOT of people like it the way it is, and are not damaged or unimpressed.

I leave it to FTL (and and anyone else individually) whether he wishes to post detailed analysis also BEFORE the race as well as after. But I don't fault him for not doing that when so much value appears to be conveyed the way it works right now (according to those who have responded here).

If anyone wants me to take RDSS away from FTL and prevent him from Teaching anything unless it is BEFORE the race, just send me a note Meanwhile, I guess I just continue to have a 'difference of opinion' but also respect your right to believe differently than me (and others). If his posts annoy you too much (and those others who wrote to you), you could put him on your Ignore list, or avert your eyes.

Ted

[atkinsrr]

Sometimes people agree and sometimes disagree with each other but the bottom line is:
are you showing a long term profit betting horses PERIOD. As humans we go about different ways of doing things, but it's the end result that counts...but from my experience with the Methodology since 1991 is if you don't read, understand, and put into practice what "Doc" Sartin presented to us in the Follow-Ups..then you are gonna remain a non-winner for a long time...which brings me to my message for the day. Today is my Follow-Up study day...looking at F.U. # 46 pages 59-68 titled THE PSYCHOLOGY OF WINNING...POSITIVITY (Winning through Meditative Visualization). You all can read this for yourself but I want to make a short comment. On page 67 "Doc" mentions the name Dr. Dennis Waitley. This gentleman (I believe) is from San Diego, CA and I saw him in 1979 in Indianapolis at a Positive Thinking seminar along with other speakers. A lot of what Dr. Waitley talked about can relate to handicapping and wagering. I purchased his cassette package of self-help tapes that I still listen today.
They are titled: POSITIVE SELF: Expectancy, Motivation, Image, Direction, Control, Discipline. Throughout this course he keeps saying "PRACTICE FROM WITHIN, WHEN YOU ARE WITHOUT. From his program I put together one of my own to help me stay focused when I'm involved with racing. MY PLAN OF ACTION IS: 1. Meditate 2. do visualization exercises focusing on patience, winning attitude, using desire to conquer fear. Seeing myself in the act of: A. preparing properly to win B. Wagering properly to win C. Collecting the money. "PRACTICE FROM WITHIN, WHEN YOU ARE WITHOUT". Also using visual aids to help my subconcious memory to retain the things that I want to achieve..such as winning races from the 20 race cycle report.. winning pictures of races along with RDSS print outs of winning races. Also pictures of $100 bills help out too. "Doc" always said that what we do is 90% mental and he gave us the tools and resources in the Follow-Ups..Dr. Dennis Waitley, Dr. Robert Anthony, Dr. Deepak Chopra (F.U.#52 pages 64-65)...ok...people guess I've said enough...Good reading everyone!!!!

[sureshotlink]

Let's show photo copies of winning and loosing tickets or phone wagering screen shot's along with winning or loosing readouts from RDSS, validator or any other handicapping program the poster is using with an explanation why certain horses are picked as contenders along with choice of paceline. I know more than my share of professional " on paper handicappers". it's a whole different ball game when serious money is riding on making the correct choice.

[Bill V.]

I feel its not a good idea to place a restriction of teaching
area post that they must be posted before the race
and now that proof of a bet validates such lessons.

What amount must be bet ? Who are any of us to judge what
another person feels is his betting level ?
So now a teaching area post must contain proof of a bet?
So lets say a person bets $2.00 on his race
is this a joke or is the person being honest in that that is all he/she
can afford to bet ?


I take this issue to heart, because for over ten years I could only make
$2 and $3 bets. My skill level did support that I should bet more,
But the pressure of life's circumstances did not.
Every week after child support alimony 2 tax problems
loans from a failed business and the fear that if I failed at betting I would have
nothing to live for caused me to live and die on $20 vouchers and
$2-$3 dollar bets.

No matter how well I did any winnings over the $20 went toward
paying off debts. Winning $200 and more on a weekend from that $20 voucher
happened on many occasions But all it meant was now I was
$180 less in debt. But I had another $20 voucher, and a ticket
to go on and bet again the next weekend.
Some of you out there may think this is stupid, Some out there may think a person in my predicament was a fool.
That I should have quit, but the whole time I had a dream, that some day my two sons would graduate college
and I would be out of debt. and I would have done the honorable thing for my
fellow US citizens and I would make my payments to the IRS as promised
each and every week. That my ex wife would have the help she needed
after all she should get some reward after being stupid enough to marry me in the first place.
It was not all bad I had lots of fun but the tears and fears of tapping out
paid a high toll on me mentally. Now I can and do bet as a professional
But I never will look down on those who can not afford the benefits of
being able to bet more than a few dollars a race.

Lets keep Pace and Cap friendly, Lets keep from making everything
about I'm better than you are ... Lets continue to help out freely
and with only good intentions to all.

[noddub62]

A big thumbs up for doing the right thing.

I agree that it would not be appropriate in the teaching thread.

Bud

[atkinsrr]

Bill V. Dollars...great post, I for one completely understand your story because I went thru some bad experiences also and for a long time made smaller wagers than I should have. Now that I'm retired, don't have to work or support anyone other than me things are different....and in 2010 when I joined RDSS and retired the same year things started changing...my confidence level increased and all of the mental practices that I had been working on started paying off...mostly thanks to "Doc" Sartin and his P.O.W. articles in the Follow-Ups...I will forever give him the credit for helping me to be better.

[sureshotlink]

Black out the $$$ wagered...Your right it's no ones business how much the wager is whether it be 2.00 or 200.00..Proof is in the pudding as the saying goes. I believe it was James Quinn who stated sartin follower's are cowards at the windows even though they had in there possession one of the most powerful tools in thoroughbred handicapping...Are you kidding me Doc loved printing in the follow-up copies of winning tickets, W2-g forms produced from winning readouts. All I am saying is when doing a post-hoc analysis of a race it would be somewhat beneficial to know there was an actual wagered made regardless of the outcome. As memory recalls before you could even make a appointment with doc the first thing he would ask you for is send me YOUR readouts from races YOU actually lost.Re-working lost races that I actually bet was the fastest and most proficient way I learned. Let me tell you after a few loses with a few bucks on the line you learn to follow direction very quick!!

[lone speed]

In regards to posting a post-race analysis, I can clearly see all the reasons for posting wagering slip confirmations and the actual wagering choices/amounts of the presenter. This manner of presentation keeps false "prophets" or false boasting of a prior race "after the fact."

But I writing about the well being of the person who is TEACHING UNDER THE THREAD titled Teaching. FTL does not gain anything but his own satisfaction of helping others use the tools available to dissect certain races. It is his own kindness and his own willingness to share his vast knowledge with new users of RDSS and experienced users with an open mind to learning new things. It takes a great deal of personal time and forethought to gather one's thoughts to make a well-written post especially if the topic is fresh and unique. You will not find any written materials in any Follow Ups of the Sartin Methodology about playing maiden races especially if they have entries with less than 3 North American pacelines to evaluate.

Can you imagine if one of us would demand of Howard Sartin or Jim Bradshaw to show us their proof of wagering before they make any presentations before us or in the Follow Ups....Malarkey is Right!!!

I will always remember an incident that happened at the San Remo in Las Vegas when Howard Sartin was presenting a seminar.. Some disgruntled associates of the Sartin Methodology interrupted his speaking session before us, calling him a fake, etc...I do not recall vividing the exact remarks that were shouted at Sartin....But we were all saddened to see a great thinker disheartened and reduced to tears....

Sartin was deeply heartbroken that people that he once helped/tutored/or worked together with in some aspects of the methodology, revolted to rebel against him in this public display to belittle Sartin.

Bottomline, the teaching section is what it is....To Teach and To Teach with Past Examples. At Harvard Business School, students studied case studies of successful business practices. Here at PaceandCap, we study past races with the desired goals of improving our skillsets or to improve our paceline selections or to improve our skills in using the computer program that we choose to exploit our edge in our chosen field of endeavor. We want to study successful handicapping practices from those willing to teach.

Are you willing to take the time to teach?? Are you willing to share ideas that you might have taken years to exploit or discovered? Are you willing to take your own precious time from your daily life to write a well-written message post to share freely without any compensation???


Or do you want to be given a fish daily??? A free analysis of a race before it is run even with your "self-proclaimed Magic Box"??? The best software program will not get one to the "promised land" without the proper input and the correct mindset and money philosophy to capitalize on the opportunity..


Good Luck

[Hoof 11]

I for one enjoy reading FTL's breakdowns and insights, i think they are invaluable. I couldn't care less if they are before the fact or after the fact, from a personal standpoint i always go back after a race and try and figure out where i went wrong, thats how we learn, by our mistakes.

FTL, pay no attention to the jaded hater's, please continue with your fine work, for this thread is a giant waste of bandwidth.

I always find it funny that the one's that are the most critical, are the one's that have very little to contribute. You know what they say..... "If you're not part of the solution, then get out of the way."

[atkinsrr]

Hey Hoof 11 good analysis...you sound like my first boss when I got out of the Air Force.
He always told us to either "LEAD, FOLLOW, or GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY"