Do we help you ?

[ignacio todoberto bernal]

Good saying boss!

Ignacio

[exactor]

Originally Posted by Ted Craven

Some users are dissatisfied, and some users are very satisfied, from what I hear. Isn't it always thus is any human gathering in any field?

It has never been my intention to package RDSS as the be all and end all of the Sartin Methodology. The fact that it is popular is not a simultaneous statement that other aspects of the Methodology, for example the visual, positional Matchup of The Hat and RichieP, or any other older Sartin software program - is currently invalid or inferior. Or that users of these are second class members of Pace and Cap. Some people may well 'interpret' that for themselves; people may interpret lots of things ...

I know of nowhere on Equibase or TrackMaster's site where RDSS is referred to as 'the premier handicapping approach'. (If you can point out this reference, I would appreciate it.) I created copy for TrackMaster (which Equibase later adapted for their site) referring to RDSS as based on Howard Sartin's last work, and endorsed by him.

I do appreciate your take that folks with no interest in RDSS may feel that other aspects of the Methodology get overlooked (despite separate forums devoted to them). Do you have advice on what further stance I might take on that issue?

Ted

I was not commenting on RDSS which is just a tool, but the modern Sartin approach as superseding all other aspects of it on this site, and I feel there is some censorship in this regard. But of course there are subforums where one can discuss other things as well. I interpret the listing of RDSS top on the list of reports at the equibase site as that they favor the method above the others.

Those are not my concerns however, what I was reacting to was the airing of dissatisfaction here on what seems to me to be a regular basis, if nothing else that's bad PR. Instead of working with these users and trying to figure out their problems. (But if the differences are ideological more than software-centric probably no support would be enough.) Apparently there is some support happening behind the scenes that one is not aware of here, still I'm not sure it would be harmful if there was some comment on that now it seems to a forum reader like the problems are left hanging, just from a PR standpoint if nothing else.

[Bill V.]

I disagree

There is no Modern Sartin Methodology or else censorship
on Pace and Cap

This issue comes up every now and then I keep asking the same
question to this accusation

If somebody post a race with Phase 1, Kgen, Energy, Speculator,
Validator PL4 or any Sartin Program or just does races with the Match Up
I will read that post and do the race myself with the same program

So what is the problem ?

Almost all of the lessons that FTL post in the teaching area are
handicapping lessons and paceline and contender selection lessons
Modern or traditional Sartin methodology, ether way you had better make correct pace line and contender selections.

anyway thank you for your opinion
and good skill

Bill

[Bill V.]

There is the issue of Ted's private teachings
I do believe this could cause some conflict when trying to learn.

This is Ted's site I too could do private lessons but I don't use all the readouts on RDSS. I don't pay that much attention to the visual running styles and I'm just so -so with the match up.
I basically put all my attention to my pace line selections. my choice of the best of the last three is based on how the horse runs well in similar races as today's race. I use a different version of RDSS
than Ted. He uses default and I use Validator Its Ted's job to teach people how to use RDSS

I teach is more about winning and losing
I don't care if I post races were I lose because I know my errors will
be the topic of an open discussion. I want to win every race
and I do much more than I lose, The lesson you see me post are
shown with this thought in mind. I'm doing the race anyway,
why not use it as a teaching tool for others.

[For The Lead]

Originally Posted by Bill V.

I disagree

There is no Modern Sartin Methodology or else censorship
on Pace and Cap

This issue comes up every now and then I keep asking the same
question to this accusation

If somebody post a race with Phase 1, Kgen, Energy, Speculator,
Validator PL4 or any Sartin Program or just does races with the Match Up
I will read that post and do the race myself with the same program

So what is the problem ?

Almost all of the lessons that FTL post in the teaching area are
handicapping lessons and paceline and contender selection lessons
Modern or traditional Sartin methodology, ether way you had better make correct pace line and contender selections.

anyway thank you for your opinion
and good skill

Bill

I agree with Bill V.

What everyone should know, what everyone should understand, is this.

Although this site is about the “Modern Sartin Methodology”, I do not adhere to that philosophy. I am “old school” Sartin Methodology in my concepts of line selection and contender selection. In fact, I even add to those old school principles, some facts I have developed on my own through the use of a very sizeable database I have been keeping for moré than 15 years. And, I am not a two horse bettor. I could go on and on with how my concepts differ from the modern methodology and that is reflected in my many posts in the teaching area. Moreover, in my daily play, I use my own software program, not RDSS.

I spent several years writing my thoughts. I even posted races using the old ENERGY program. I started posting up snippets of various items from the OLD follow ups and the paceline manual.

Being fully aware of the foregoing, Ted developed a working relationship with me, whereby I would have access to RDSS so that I could post example races and etc., in a format that would be more helpful to those using RDSS. Therefore, I must say that Ted exercises great flexibility with what gets posted on this site.

Surely, if Ted’s “mo” was his way or the highway, I would have been far down the road long ago.

[albatross]

this site is in formative especialy if you have rdss.but there is alot of info for pen and pencil guy two as for neg comments people say mean nothing as may even bring more people over to see for them self s there are alot of people on pa board.will never be happy with anybody in cludeing thier maker.you are all informative never in salt people way of thinking which can t be said over there onpa board which other wise is excellent board two

[Charlie D]

Originally Posted by JimG

This website and supporting materials give a fantastic education on pace and its importance in the game.
Jim

Nailed it here has Jim.

[papajohn3times]

I just came across the thread and I am upset with the guy who complained to the messages and post's here! If it wasn't for Ted,the 2 Bill's(This complainer seems to mirror the loser's I run into at the off track where I attend.bitter and just complaining to make them feel better about losing and being members of that so uninformed majority of so called "handicapper's" Constantly complaining about stiff jobs,trainer's and jockey's. I quit trying to help all of them because they just did not to put in the time and work that is needed to have even a fighting chance to profit.I have given up trying to help those who won't help themselves to learn. Anyway again,thanks to all you folks out there who have truly made me a pretty good player!

Papa John

[fastcharlie55]

Originally Posted by Bill V.

A former member who because of his actions is no longer allowed to
post here on pace and cap. made a post recently on Paceadvantage.com

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...73&postcount=1

I would like to address this issue here. I don't want to get into a confrontation
with this former member, I would like to speak on behalf myself and FTL and Ted and all those who are willing to help and teach.

I post a race as often as I can, I try to provide everybody with a chance to
look over the past performance, and I also try to provide all users of the methodology the tools they use. I show original pacelines, I show the
APV and Class ratings. I show the weight assignments, and the New Pace
readouts. When I have time I add a little comment on each horse.
The comments sometimes include my questions and my thoughts about some of the horses. I do this because I want to learn too.

When I choose a race to post I always bet the race myself unless the near post time odds tell me my selections offer no value.
I take great interest in the races I post, When I win a race I have posted I will just come on and post the result chart.
I try to post result charts that show the running position of the horses, I do this for the matchers on our board. I realize that
position is a vital part of the match up.When I loose a race I post the same result chart.

Now here is where I want to answer the former member.
I do not participate on any other horse racing forum, but I do read
Pace Advantage because I enjoy the game of horse racing.
Anyway I don't know the ins ad outs of other forums but
Pace and Cap is just about helping and teachingand discussing
the Sartin Methodology. To become a better winner with the methodology
you must know some basic facts about handicapping.
Doc Sartin often said he did not want to teach handicapping he wanted to help people who were handicappers but could not win as handicappers
He also said that for beginners to follow his guidelines but that some handicapping knowledge is important.

The former member says I come back after the fact and say 'If I use this line"
He is correct I often will come back after a race and ask If I had used line 4
would I have done better ? I can't see how this is a bad thing.

I recently posted a race, I did not enter a line for the winner
The horse won and with a morning line of 2/1 paid $12.00.

What followed was a great post race explanation of how this horse's
running style and training pattern and form cycle shows why this horse
won.

I got much more out of this race because I lost. The teachers here
have no ego's and fears of coming on and teaching where and when we go wrong.
Believe me, when I post a race and I win the race I am happy,
and take the money, But I really post races because win or lose I know
that there is a good lesson to be shown.

Bill

I have been at this game over 40 years and anyone that is looking for a magi black box software is dreaming. Software alone will not produce winners if you don't have great skills at pace line selection and an overall knowledge of the game.
This software is as good as it gets and the guys sharing information here are skilled players.
I know a lot of guys going from software to software looking for the magic black box and end up back where they started.
Also, remember we bet on horses not machines and a horse that should have won can lose for many reasons.
This is a site for professionals who share knowledge and do their best to help each other. So if you don't understand any of the above this is not the place for you.

[Ted Craven]

It should be clarified that any previously dissatisfied individuals named in this older thread have since happily and respectfully rejoined this P&C community.

We all move on, if we're lucky.

I hope no ill-will is rekindled from reading anything here. It would be totally misplaced today, and unnecessary. The concepts expressed are eternally valid. As are forgiveness and a welcoming hand.

With respect,

Ted