position or lengths

[Tim Y]

When the truck drivers did their initial work they found THREE, out of the many factors studied, that were stand alone evaluations:
1) EP or velocity to the 2nd call
2) SP, which is not surprising as it is made up of EP
3) Average pace a compounded rating, as I recall, this one was only indicative in sprints (Fuzzy here but that's the one I recall).

I have hundreds of 20 race cycle sheets around, and, not too strangely, find NO column on them which is used for F1 as a handicapping factor.

Now coming from a guy who, as Richie one time pointed out, "never met an early horse he didn't like," I have reviewed more than my share of the earlier parts of races from the thousands of races I have put through the computer back to the days of ENGEN, KGEN, and Phase III.

Now I have heard some anthropomorphize, and try to feed me the concept that horses are showing some kind of "courage" or "fighting spirit" when they go head to head early. Horses run out of fear: they have evolved an effective, hard wired instinct of "fight or flight" from predecessor forms (Eohippus for one) in getting away from predators.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_behavior QUOTE:"Other instinctive traits, such as running away when frightened, bucking off anything that lands on a horse's back (like a mountain lion or other predator), or never entering a small enclosed area, also have to be overcome before the horse is useful to humans" All aspects that a race brings out to start the fear cycle.

http://www.extension.org/pages/Horse...light_Instinct
QUOTE:"Horses evolved from small mammals whose survival depended on their ability to flee from predators. This basic survival mechanism still is ingrained in the modern horse. Although we have removed most of the predators from the life of the domestic horse, its first instinct when frightened is to run away from the frightening stimulus. If running is not possible then the horse resorts to biting, kicking, striking or rearing to protect itself. Many of the horse’s natural behavior patterns, such as forming herds and performing the same activities as other horses in their herd, relate directly to their prey status."

They evolved the ability of escape through a nimble, speedy mechanism supported by natural stamina and lung capacity. Both the famous animal behaviorist Konrad Lorenz and (the Naked Ape author) Desmond Morris (in this great book Horsewatching), outline how these instincts come about in animals, and how the adapt to differing circumstances. From the day they are born, horses instinctively try to remove ANY object on their backs as they are perceived as predators. In the earliest stages of conditioning, yearlings will try to extricate themselves from saddles and then later to the weight of a man (they usually lay across the back quietly called bellying). Even later, when training has "calmed" some of that "fight or flight," the race atmosphere does everything to re-initiate it again by the loud clang of the bell at the start, the riders whooping an hollering out of the gate, AND the stinging slap on the backside, which no horse can differentiate from the instinctual maneuver of fear that there is a predator there. Even later in a contest,when the rider is showing the whip along the sides of the head, they continue on out of conditioned fear.

Look at the body language of a horse quietly grazing or meandering around a field, versus the wild eyed look when they load (you usually cannot see the lighter sclera around a horse's eyes unless they are frightened and you see it often at the time they load into the gate). This is after the pre-race workout has gotten them keyed up. Then, confine them in a very small space (which almost no horse handles well), and the evolutionary mechanisms are all "on" when they are "released" into the race. It is only as they mature that a little of this calms down, but in many animals it never does and they stand there waiting to be loaded a trembling, wet mess, often quivering with those eyes very wide open.

[Charlie D]

Here is the array from Modern Pace Handicapping

Sartin Methodolgy Chapter

Sartin "Figures"


Fr1 - Fr2 - Fr3 AP (Fr1+Fr2+Fr3/3) EP (2c Distance/2c time) SP (EP+Fr3/2) FX (Fr1+Fr3/2) %E

This is the array we'll be using in one form or another, throughout the remainder of our discussion of the feet per second methodology. It represents the basic Sartin Methodology

Energy Distribution Chapter

Total Energy = EP+LF
%E = EP/TTL

[VoodooFan]

Originally Posted by socantra

In southeastern Oklahoma, serious disputes are settled with dynamite.

Dick

Jim "THE HAT" Bradshaw, on tape, giving a MatchUp lecture said he told a gentleman that fast horses win races.

That gentleman told someone else there, and some fella poked fun at him for that statement.

Then THE HAT told the audience rhetorically, after telling this story, " If you don't believe fast horses win races..........., what track do YOU play??? I want to get into YOUR back pocket!!"

What tracks, you guys with the dispute, Do YOU play???

Get in EACH OTHER'S back pocket. Let the tellers at the window settle it.

I think people just want to spar, like a slow night at a bar, people don't care why they swingin, they just want to swing.

VoodooFan

[Charlie D]

Hi Voodoofan


We probably all joined PaceandCap Forum to discuss and learn about the Sartin Methodology and The Match Up with other interested parties

One of those interested parties Tim, made a statement earlier about the Sartin Methodology, some disagreed with this statement, so now some are discussing this statement

These type of discussions make a forum interesting and one worth logging onto, i reckon


Great forum innit

[Turbulator]

Originally Posted by socantra

No one that I've seen has claimed that the 1st fraction is a stand alone factor.

Dick

I have. I use F1 as a stand alone contender selector...and it works. (Thanks, Richie. Thanks Hat.)

Steve

[Turbulator]

I'll also say this: and I don't know if I've said it publicly before or not, but if I have it bears repeating. The "Mind's Eye" articles Richie posted in the Hat Check section are some of the best things he's ever written. I was kind of floundering around with the MatchUP, but after reading and reading those articles the light bulb kind of went on. I've probably read every post in the Hat Check section five times, but for those of you who haven't already read them and for those of you who have I suggest you read and reread those "Mind's Eye" posts again and again until they become second nature to you.

And by the way, F1 is the centerpiece of those articles.

[VoodooFan]

Originally Posted by Charlie D

These type of discussion make a forum and make it one worth logging onto, i reckon

I suppose. Everyone has their own reasons.

I come here for the MatchUp and proven tools and solutions to help understand things better, do things easier, to improve.

Debate nowadays, is really a waste of time and effort.

We can each provide experts day and night on opposite opinions, so what is the point?

I just want the truth, and what works, day in , day out.

The source does not matter, if even I find them offensive, if its the truth and works in the real world daily, I'm in.

Debate , arguements are going to be a dinasaur, eventually, as the years progress.

If I want to learn and improve a discipline, why would I offer resistance, especially if said art is proven daily?

Unless I show daily results of my point of contention, whats the point? Am I here to argue, to find holes, or am I here to get something positive and enhance what I already have success at.

I tell ya, if I had more things workin, more truth, I would not be wasting time convincing anyone of anything, its ultimately a waste of time. Even typing this , wasting time, shows I don't have all the holes in my boat filled.

Waste time convincing someone that does not want to buy, or better time and energy improving one's self and getting to higher levels of achievement, living, truth, and discovery. Figuring out solutions to daily problems, wasting time convincing and whining to people who may really just want to saber rally as a hobby.

Better more productive ways to use time, which could get you closer to your dreams, nobodys getting any younger and we are playing "beat the clock".....if I am on a boat, just got out the storm drenched sea, and tried to pull some else up or at least threw down a rope and they threw the rope back at me or fighting me so hard that they almost pull me off the boat back into danger, they have the right NOT to want to be saved, despite what they say that don't match their actions.

If a person hates brocolli, they hate brocolli. If a person likes smoking or being drunk, all the most powerful information and experts in the world ain't gonna get that person to change, in fact, he might know more than you of how detremental it is, but he likes what he likes, and only HE decides to change WHEN he decides, irregardless of the evidence.

You can spice up brocolli for the brocolli hater, put cheese on it, even if he decides to try it, he possibly may only tolerate it because of the fixins, but he still hates brocolli and would not venture on his own to pursue it.

And even after all that, you fix it up so that it is almost no longer brocolli, which defeats the purpose anyway, but becomes something else, less than 5% of brocolli and more fixins than anything else, he STILL only tolerates it for that moment after loads of sellsmanship on why he should try it, and still, he would not be convinced.

Most people are really not looking for anything at all, they just want to banter and feel secure in their set , finding negatives to any entity that expands them beyond their comfort zone, in fact, get very nasty and violent, which is why people take comfort in taking sides, teams if you will, republican, democrat, jewish, catholic, white, black, Dodgers, Yankees, gangs, etc.....usually unwilling to expand beyond their base, truth does not comform to what you want, but what is , yet to be discovered.

If you lived from the time of Adam till now, you still would be learning and not know all what there is yet to be learned and the science of understanding nature and its unlimited secrets, you would be truely humbled , by what there is yet to learn, what more you don't know, it is humbling, if one truely appreciates truth and its ever evolving clarity.

Nowadays, I just listen to people and don't offer any solutions if I had it because most people just want to talk. I knew a few people I talked to who told of some problems and contentions, and I KNEW for a certainty on some of these guys I had the answer for their troubles, but when it is offered or suggested, they give you a look and graze over the conversation like you said nothing at all as if to say, " Just shut up and listen to my pain, I don't want it solved" or " be my sounding board, someone I can dump on" but I REALLY don't want to solve or resolve anything, just take solace and amens that things are difficult and take comfort that someone is in the same club as me, the miserable club, comfort than I am not alone, thats all I need, no solution really needed.

That's why psychiatrist get paid the big bucks...., just sit there, let them babble, and say after every statement, " and how does that make you feel?"

Pay the receptionist on your way out, and here is another drug prescription.

Like the Jerry Springer audience, television viewers and participants, don't really want anything in particular, just like noise , drama, gossip and craziness just for the sake and excuse that something is happening, and feel better about themselves because someone is either worse off than they are or swimming in the mud with them.

Others may like what they like, I like conversation that helps me learn, not argue. If I had a question, I would venture to ask what test proves something rather than make a definative statement as a point of contention and disagreement.....If there were a point of contention, simply test yours and his in the real world, in a fair experiment and field test, and let nature tell you what works, if you really want the truth....if you want something else, then thats what you want.

That's one reason I like what the UFC has brought to the table.

A person can show clips of him demonstrating and sparring IN A GYM very pretty techniques, good ,crisp timing , powerful looking demonstrations of his ability, telling of his years of study and all his certificates ,teaching creditials and degrees of mastery in the art, but when put in a street fight with no rules, which is supposed to be the purpose of him training and preparing anyway, all his training is found to be mostly un-useful and wanting, and he ends up fighting like someone with no training and experience at all , and ends up looking like his sister in fighting techniques.

Say how good you are, say how smart you are, say , argue, debate ,etc. thats some peoples hobby, arm chair academia, I say sail the ocean and prove the world is not flat......how did those scholars and scientist feel when he proved them wrong?

VoodooFan

[Charlie D]

If Doc thought it was a waste of time, he wouldn't have written loads of Manuals and Follow Up's, held Seminars, created Computer programs

If The Hat thought it was a waste of time, he would not have taught Richie about the Match U. If Richie thought it was a waste of time, he would not be teaching us about the Match Up

Because people believe it is worth their time trying to convince people, we have RDSS, we have Bill's forum with it's excellent library

The Methodology, The Match Up lives on today and will go on living because think it's worth their time

Keep quiet, say nowt, discuss nowt and you've got no Methodology, no Match Up, it dies

[xtb]

I like broccoli.

[Tim Y]

The quantum leaps in ASSUMPTIONS!!!!! No one said a thing about any compounded factor, the Match Up ....only F1.

This reminds me of the outrageous outpouring of disdain that the creator of Ripley's Believe It or Not went through in the early thirties: he flatly stated in one of his columns that there was "no official national anthem in the United States." The venom poured in, people were screaming for his head, he was a public outrage...... Akin to here, the anger generated over a nonthreatening statement is still funny to behold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Ripley

His response? (very similar to mine regarding this whole question): There was no official national anthem because the Congress had NEVER named one; it was HIS pointing it out that moved them to adopt it officially. Just as there are no published studies, nor any reference to F1 as a stand alone handicapping factor in any of the Sartin literature.

When all of his detractors discovered that he, in fact, was correct, TYPICAL OF HUMAN NATURE, they were still angry with him. "Shoot the messenger" is an old tried and true part of our culture because of it's commonality.